Thread: What are you reading?

Lastly, too many people think kids need praise and reward for everything these days. So reward charts and stuff are massively over used

Kohn's ideas on education have been influenced by the works of John Dewey and Jean Piaget. He believes in a constructivist account of learning in which the learner is seen as actively making meaning, rather than absorbing information, and he argues that knowledge should be taught "in a context and for a purpose."[11] He has written that learning should be organized around "problems, projects, and questions – rather than around lists of facts, skills, and separate disciplines."[12] Along with this belief, Kohn feels that students should have an active voice in the classroom with the ability to have a meaningful impact on the curriculum, structure of the room, and any necessary discipline measures.[13]

Kohn has been critical of several aspects of traditional schooling. Classroom management and discipline are, in his view, focused more on eliciting compliance than on helping students become caring, responsible problem-solvers. He has also denounced the effects of the test-driven "accountability" movement – in general, but particularly on low-income and minority students – arguing that "the more poor children fill in worksheets on command (in an effort to raise their test scores), the further they fall behind affluent kids who are more likely to get lessons that help them understand ideas."[14] More recently, Kohn has been critical of the place homework holds in the American classroom, noting that research does not support claims of any benefit from homework, academically or otherwise.[15]

Piaget is my homie.

I agree with the constructivist approach and support student-centered learning when possible, but I think there are limits to the student-centered theory of education.

I agree with his critique of modern schooling in general, including the testing and what not. I think compliance is an essential component of school though - teaching rules, norms, and etc of a given society/culture is a large function of public schooling.

I basically agree with his view on homework. I only give homework if I need an excuse to take some grades down a bit since many will not turn it in or finish it. The only value of homework usually IMO is if you are trying to prepare kids for the amount of homework they will receive in future grade levels.

I might read the book.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

if it's true that most modern texts on the subject don't mention the measured effect of a reduction in intrinsic motivation after application of extrinsic rewards.

I think that research is well evidenced. But as per my first post, the intrinsic motivation does not diminish because of the reward..... It's the conditions the reward was delivered in.

Ie if an association in the brain is made that drinking kefir is only useful if a cinema trip is on the cards

Originally Posted by aberdien

Piaget is my homie.

I agree with the constructivist approach and support student-centered learning when possible, but I think there are limits to the student-centered theory of education.

I agree with his critique of modern schooling in general, including the testing and what not. I think compliance is an essential component of school though - teaching rules, norms, and etc of a given society/culture is a large function of public schooling.

I basically agree with his view on homework. I only give homework if I need an excuse to take some grades down a bit since many will not turn it in or finish it. The only value of homework usually IMO is if you are trying to prepare kids for the amount of homework they will receive in future grade levels.

I might read the book.

I love some piaget too. I prefer Skinner, Watson, bandura

Social Learning theory for me, when coupled with behaviorism and classical conditioning explains so much about the human condition imo

But, whatever theory floats your boat... Always remember it's only one theory, and no one theory explains us or our behavior!

What is the verdict on sarcastic praise?

"Great job on not failing a quiz for the first time this year."

Who is the author, hawgmeister?

Originally Posted by aberdien

What is the verdict on sarcastic praise?

"Great job on not failing a quiz for the first time this year."

Lol

Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis

Who is the author, hawgmeister?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Kohn

Five Reasons to Stop Saying “Good Job!”
https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/fi...ying-good-job/

One theory is based on identity and control--no one likes to be controlled (well, BDSM fetishes aside) and we all want to maintain our feeling of free will and choice and unique identity. To the extent that a reward is another entity exerting control to shape a person, we resist.

I'm in the praise camp but this book is making me question praise in a general way.

An absurdist position would be absolutely never giving praise. Idk, there might be something to it.

Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis

A bribe (For a specific incident or outcome)

If you do x, you will get y

Praise (should be a predictable and reliable pattern that is consistent)

Hey, you tried x, well done. What should we do now?

Or if they don't try it

Hey, you didn't try x today, maybe next time. Come on let's go.

The trick to effective praise is the ambivalence you show when the absence of praise is needed

Yeah, that sounds like praise as more of a love/affection gesture. Never can have enough of those. I think you hit on it with the ambivalence factor--it's not an explicit condition for acceptance.

Hawg

That book was written in 93

That explains a lot. Although some of what he says may still be in the public psyche, and still poorly executed by schools and misunderstood by parents ..... In general most of his points are very much in line with my own studies.

So I would say, any one in the human development field in any capacity would agree... Testing is bullshit, homework is bullshit, over rewarding and praising for no real reason is bullshit...... But policy makers are too weak to fully implement his suggestions. The majority of which seem spot on to me. (From a quick Google search)

Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis

Hawg

That book was written in 93

That explains a lot. Although some of what he says may still be in the public psyche, and still poorly executed by schools and misunderstood by parents ..... In general most of his points are very much in line with my own studies.

So I would say, any one in the human development field in any capacity would agree... Testing is bullshit, homework is bullshit, over rewarding and praising for no real reason is bullshit...... But policy makers are too weak to fully implement his suggestions. The majority of which seem spot on to me. (From a quick Google search)

93??

We need to update our conventions, world! Twenty-five years and it's only gotten worse!

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

An absurdist position would be absolutely never giving praise. Idk, there might be something to it.

Research would suggest that never giving praise would create one of two extremes, either they would always seek approval and never feel good enough and they will be needy af, or never try because they don't think they are good enough and they will be cold and aloof. So I wouldn't recommend it lol

Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis

Hawg

That book was written in 93

That explains a lot. Although some of what he says may still be in the public psyche, and still poorly executed by schools and misunderstood by parents ..... In general most of his points are very much in line with my own studies.

So I would say, any one in the human development field in any capacity would agree... Testing is bullshit, homework is bullshit, over rewarding and praising for no real reason is bullshit...... But policy makers are too weak to fully implement his suggestions. The majority of which seem spot on to me. (From a quick Google search)

Whew. Glad I'm not wasting time on bunk science.

Really though, what I am reading is new to me. And I think I know things! It feels like the lack of intrinsic motivation is a major factor contributing to societal well-being (or malaise), and the systems of education and even parenting are too entrenched in the pragmatism of extrinsic rewards. It feels like we have a lot of room to improve how we cultivate (actually, how we don't impede) intrinsic motivation.