Thread: Bucky Brooks all-rookie team. Looky-here it boasts 3 Broncos

Originally Posted by TXBRONC

Yes, you are being unfair.

No more than people are being overly kind by hand-waiving away his lack of speed because a few players have overcome it.

Originally Posted by King87

No more than people are being overly kind by hand-waiving away his lack of speed because a few players have overcome it.

Lack of speed regarding Jewell is utterly overblown. His 4.82 at the Combine was an anomaly.
He logged a 4.68 on his pro day, and he said he was expecting a mid-4.6. Moreover, the article
I cited above shows that Jewell plays with entirely adequate football speed. His 26 pass
breakups and 6 interceptions in college provide evidence of that.

First, you say that Keenum can't throw the long ball, and now you have Jewell being slow.
Where are you getting your information?

Originally Posted by King87

No more than people are being overly kind by hand-waiving away his lack of speed because a few players have overcome it.

King, you asked for input and told you want I honestly think. Hand-waiving it away his lack of speed I don't think so. I just don't care about his 40 time, if Jewel has the instincts and desire to play he'll do just fine. A 40 time doesn't tell us diddly on what player a guy is. Also, there just as many guys with faster 40 times that don't make it.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...p-ball-project

https://fullpresscoverage.com/2017/1...ve-to-improve/

https://brickwallblitz.com/2018/03/2...-ball-project/

In regards to me taking issue with Case Keenum's deep ball throwing.

In regards to the issue with J's speed - looking at a 40 time and going "this guy isn't very fast," isn't unfair. And yes, while some guys have instincts, and while speed isn't everything, we have seen first hand what happens when LB's don't have the footspeed to keep up with opposing players. And the process isn't perfect, but they have the players run a forty yard dash for a reason. Just ignoring the fact that he's slow, and that's not just coming from a forty time, there were scouts who watched the guy play and his tape who said that, too.

I didn't hate the pick. I think he can probably be okay, and maybe even good. But it is magical how many people seem to watch a player get drafted and all of a sudden those relatively agreed upon weaknesses don't exist anymore. That was the point.

Originally Posted by King87

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...p-ball-project

https://fullpresscoverage.com/2017/1...ve-to-improve/

https://brickwallblitz.com/2018/03/2...-ball-project/

In regards to me taking issue with Case Keenum's deep ball throwing.

In regards to the issue with J's speed - looking at a 40 time and going "this guy isn't very fast," isn't unfair. And yes, while some guys have instincts, and while speed isn't everything, we have seen first hand what happens when LB's don't have the footspeed to keep up with opposing players. And the process isn't perfect, but they have the players run a forty yard dash for a reason. Just ignoring the fact that he's slow, and that's not just coming from a forty time, there were scouts who watched the guy play and his tape who said that, too.

I didn't hate the pick. I think he can probably be okay, and maybe even good. But it is magical how many people seem to watch a player get drafted and all of a sudden those relatively agreed upon weaknesses don't exist anymore. That was the point.

As I said King, I don't care about the 40 time, I care about him being able to play. 40 times doesn't tell much about how a guy plays. How guys blow up the combine year after and don't do crap in the NFL?

Now you're switching horses, first it was Keenum can't throw anything resembling a deep pass, now you're switching it too he's doesn't do it very well. Those two entirely different arguments.

Being able to play often involves speed, is the point. How many guys look great on tape and end up bombing in the league because they lack the physical ability? Just as many as the workout warriors. There's a balance - which is why I didn't take issue with people liking him as a player so much as the total dismissal of what is an obvious flaw in his game.

Originally Posted by King87

Being able to play often involves speed, is the point. How many guys look great on tape and end up bombing in the league because they lack the physical ability? Just as many as the workout warriors. There's a balance - which is why I didn't take issue with people liking him as a player so much as the total dismissal of what is an obvious flaw in his game.

I haven't seen anybody with a "total dismissal of an obvious flaw." Here is my reaction:

1. You first seemed to imply that Keenum can't pass deep, which is entirely inaccurate. Sure,
he needs to improve his deep game. But my eye test (the one I trust the most) has shown
me that he is entirely capable of the deep pass, which he has shown many times.

2. You referred to Jewell with "lack of speed." Granted he does not have the speed of, say,
Brandon Marshall, but "lack of speed" is not entirely accurate. He is not fast, but he is not
slow. Again, I go by the eye test. I've seen him track down QBs and also refuse to allow
RBs to turn the corner wide. So he's not a burner, but he's not a turtle, either. And he does
make up for whatever "lack of speed" he may have with unbelievable anticipation.

You have essentially accused us of superfluity when in fact that has described you on these
particular issues.

You talk about how you love 'facts' and then talk about trusting your eye test?

Second, he hasn't shown that 'many times' because he hasn't played a lot. Last year he was amongst the worst at deep ball passing as evidenced by those stats, and you claim the opposite.

Then you go back to the eye test again. No one cares about your eye test Top, especially when it goes against just about every single scouting report out there, INCLUDING THE SCOUTS WHO LIKE HIM.

Originally Posted by King87

You talk about how you love 'facts' and then talk about trusting your eye test?

Second, he hasn't shown that 'many times' because he hasn't played a lot. Last year he was amongst the worst at deep ball passing as evidenced by those stats, and you claim the opposite.

Then you go back to the eye test again. No one cares about your eye test Top, especially when it goes against just about every single scouting report out there, INCLUDING THE SCOUTS WHO LIKE HIM.

One thing I notice about you is that you seem to think you speak for others.

Anyway, I didn't say I go by the eye test to the exclusion of data. But your problem seems
that you do not check out the sources I provide. As TX noted, you seemed to imply that
Keenum was incapable of the deep pass. Now you're trying to make it look as if I was
saying how exquisite he is at it when I made no such implication. I agreed in my previous
post that he needs improvement at it. I only showed that he is indeed capable of it. That's
all I was saying before you tried to put words into my mouth.

Originally Posted by King87

Our WR's won't standout because CK is CK.

Kind of like Diggs and Thielen didn't stand out?

Vontaze Burfict ran over 5 seconds.... how about this tidbit:

According to a five-year NFL combine report, wide receivers and cornerbacks had the fastest average times at 4.55, followed by running backs at 4.59. The following average times were measured between 2008 and 2012 at the NFL combine.[20]

Position Time
Wide receiver 4.55
Cornerback 4.55
Running back 4.59
Safety 4.62
Outside linebacker 4.74
Tight end 4.77
Fullback 4.80
Inside linebacker 4.80
Quarterback 4.87
Defensive end 4.88
Defensive tackle 5.13
Center 5.30
Offensive tackle 5.32
Offensive guard 5.36

Originally Posted by Davii

Vontaze Burfict ran over 5 seconds.... how about this tidbit:

According to a five-year NFL combine report, wide receivers and cornerbacks had the fastest average times at 4.55, followed by running backs at 4.59. The following average times were measured between 2008 and 2012 at the NFL combine.[20]

Position Time
Wide receiver 4.55
Cornerback 4.55
Running back 4.59
Safety 4.62
Outside linebacker 4.74
Tight end 4.77
Fullback 4.80
Inside linebacker 4.80
Quarterback 4.87
Defensive end 4.88
Defensive tackle 5.13
Center 5.30
Offensive tackle 5.32
Offensive guard 5.36

I know Burfict's career pretty well - at forty he showed up overweight and ran that awful forty. That was one of the reasons why he fell into the supplemental draft and then was later picked up by Cincinnati - it wasn't JUST the forty time that killed him (it really hurt) but the fact that he had all those issues at college and THEN showed up out of shape, which spoke to where his head was at.

But when he got back into shape his actual speed went back to where it was when he was considered to be a first round pick. So, with that being said, he's not a shining example of 'speed doesn't matter'.

To believe VJ will start Jewell over Davis is pushing it. Jewell is a ST only at this point

Originally Posted by elsid13

To believe VJ will start Jewell over Davis is pushing it. Jewell is a ST only at this point

I would be amazed if he starts but if he shows a lot I’d be surprised if he doesn’t get time.

Originally Posted by topscribe

With all due respect, this seems lazy analysis. The Broncos have three on the list because
they are deemed good players. Chubb was considered the best defensive player in the draft,
and some considered him the best player in all the draft. As for the others, it doesn't matter
whether or not their respective positions have weaknesses. The players are going to have to
earn the distinction against opponents from other teams.

By the way, Jewell did fairly well in coverage in college, according to what I read. He had 26
pass breakups and six interceptions in his three years at Iowa. I think his image is suffering
from his 4,82 40-time at the Combine. However, he ran 4.68 on his pro day, and he said he
has done better than that. But he's much, much faster in football speed than he is in shorts.

Jewell is not on this list because he's expected to be Pozluszny, he's on it because the guy ahead of him is Todd Freaking Davis. Royce Freeman isn't on it because Bucky thinks he's a top-2 back (he had him just outside his top 5 IIRC) but because the Broncos have no real vet in front of him and are happy to run a back timeshare, which means he'll get plenty of chances to get yards.

It's not a knock on Freeman or Jewell. I think the world of Freeman and was pulling for Denver to draft him last year if he came out, let alone this year. Immediate opportunity matters on lists like this, though, and Denver has opportunities available for these young players.

Jewell's pass breakups were mostly zone opportunites, top. His reaction time is excellent and he will break on balls in the flat, which is why I like him, but his footspeed isn't even on tape. He just gets to the right spot on the field. That's crucial when there's a point to attack, and not as helpful when he's just running with a guy in man coverage. And as I've said before, pro-day times will always be about .12 faster on average because of the way they are timed. He verified his 40-combine time. Whether you think you should judge LBs on their 40 sprint times is a different thing.

I'm happy we're gonna give Jewell a shot because I think he's an improvement, and happy that Freeman should get a good workload as a rookie, and glad that Chubb is ours, all ours because I do expect him to be a monster. But the Broncos could have taken one of a half-dozen backs and still had a RB on this list, and could have taken a few other MLBs and made the list as well. The players we got are good players, but their listing here is partly due to need.

That's not a slam. I certainly hope they all live up to their opportunities - Denver needs that. And this is the happiest I've been with a Denver draft in some time. I can say all that and still say that this list is an opportunity list rather than a "best 1st year pro players" list.