Thread: Don't trade PS2. Don't suggest trading him. Your hot take is bad.

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

I keep getting told that PS2 is worth at least 2 first round picks. He’s an All-pro player who is better than any DB in this class. If that’s the case, he should net us a top ten pick without even having to trade #12 (like ATL at 8). Now, if you want to get into the top 5, you’ll have to package him with #12 to get to 4. I think trading him to get the FQB Payton wants is worth it, but I wouldn’t give him away. I’d actually rather target PS2 for ATL’s 8 straight up. Then get a QB and a blue chipper like Bowers or Sweat.

Call it Fashanu or Turner, and I'm in.

Dak next offseason seems like it will be the move when all is said and done.

Originally Posted by UnderArmour

Dak next offseason seems like it will be the move when all is said and done.

I hope not. Sick of it. The Denver Broncos take tax payer money. They take my money. They take Colorado's money. They take the fan's money. It is high time they do the most important job in football. Develop your own damn QB. That is the job. And I am a Dak guy, have been since he was in college, but he is 30 and I am so sick of seeing this franchise takes the easy way out. Even trading for Rus was just one more instance of the Broncos as a franchise throwing in the towel on the idea of developing their own guy. I would rather go BPA draft Rattler/Pratt/Milton late and grab the Georgia kid next year or maybe Dieon and Shedeur quit this "we will only play in select cities" stuff and get him. The idea of another teams cast off, even if he is good, just frustrates me to no end.

Originally Posted by aberdien

Texans are trending up, but people here complained about the prospect of getting a WC because "we'll lose anyway and have a worse draft pick." So let's not get ahead of ourselves. They tanked hard af, so we'll see if it works out for them in the next few years.

The last team to reach a championship doing what the Broncos have done at QB (ie, signing free agent QBs or drafting mid-late rounders):

Bucs (signing Tom, Brad f'in Johnson lmao), Eagles (Wentz/Foles drama), 49ers (mid-late round QBs), Rams (signing free agent QB Matty Staffy), Broncos (signing Pey Pey), Cardinals (signing Kurt Warner), Seahawks (drafting mid round Rustle; free agent Matt Hasselbeck), Panthers (Jake Delhomme!), Raiders (Rich Gannon), Ravens (Trent Dilfer lololol), Giants (Kerry Collins).

The last team to reach a SB tanking:

Rams
Bengals

-------

Moral of the story:

You can tank and suck ass and hope that you build a team and find a HOF Quarterback in the draft, or you can hover around .500 and hope you find a gawdly QB in free agency. The key is choosing a not shitty QB. The Broncos have not done a good job at that. The Broncos method has been done before and been successful - with a much higher rate of success than straight up tanking - but when the people at the top are choosing bad QBs it fails. They just need to stop choosing shitty QBs, whether it be in the 1st round, 7th round, or free agency IDGAF.

Okay, there's a whole lot to unpack here. To start, I said WIN a championship, so we can discount the 9ers and Panthers right out the gate. But if the goal is to consistently compete for titles (as it should be, reference Chazzy's post below yours), then the Texans are already big winners, because Stroud absolutely puts them on that road. We'll see whether they can reach the mountaintop, but I would sell both of our souls for a young QB like that. Now, how many of the others that you named are following the Donkey's post- Peyton "plan?" None of them over the past two decades, really. If just plain getting wildly lucky qualifies as a "plan," then certainly the Rams with Warner would qualify. But the Seahawks don't. Yeah. they selected a QB in the middle rounds, but that's where the similarity ends. They gave Russ the opportunity to legitimately compete for the job in camp, and within a few weeks accepted that he was too talented to sit behind their journeyman bridge scrub Matt Flynn. They named him the week one starter, committed to him, and never looked back. Totally unlike Denver, who has leapt at any possible excuse to keep their drafted QBs on the bench for game-managing slappies. McDaniels got fired rather than put Tebow on the field, and Elway sent him packing as soon as he could. We literally never played Paxton Lynch at all. More a failure of scouting in that case, but the fact remains-- they played a rag-armed 6th round pick who was on their practice squad over the guy they traded up in the first round for. Then they stashed Lock on IR with a mostly phantom injury, and IIRC refused to play him until Flacco got hurt himself. Then they changed his OC in the off-season, and after a rough year they gave up on him. . . so they could play Teddy freaking Bridgewater. What a joke. The last time this franchise made an actual good faith effort to develop a highly drafted quarterback was Jay Cutler. That's almost twenty years ago. Not coincidentally, that's also the last time the Donks even tried to draft a QB in the top twenty picks. If you want to argue that Denver hasn't picked good QB prospects, it's unquestionably true, but I think you're ignoring the glaring fact that most of the great prospects go in the top 10-12 picks, almost every year. You can count the exceptions on one hand.

Which leads us to the Bucs, who signed the oldest, most wild outlier of a QB to ever play the sport. Is that a plan? If so, unless you're eying Aaron Rogers, I guess Mahomes is the next target. Are we gonna wait until he's 45 years old with his arm falling off, when the Chiefs finally don't want him anymore, then swoop in for a 1-2 year rental? Shit, he's like 28 right now. We can draft and try to actually develop three or four QBs in the meanwhile, easily. Aside from maybe missing out on another glorious 6-7 win season along the way, what could it hurt? Moving along to Staffy and Pey Pey, doesn't that actually reinforce my point? Those teams won Super Bowls with two QBs who were both drafted number one overall. And as you are well aware, Von's insane stretch of play was really the reason that the Donks got that ring. Von freaking Miller, who was drafted number two overall, because we sucked the year before. Having top talent helps, it really does. And Manning and Stafford were both available because they were coming off of major injuries. So, what's the plan there? Wait until Josh Allen is 35 years old and breaks either his neck or his back, then we get him on the cheap? Once again, what's the harm in trying to draft a young, healthy, talented QB with a high pick ourselves in the meantime? Not to mention the elephant in the room, which is the utterly disastrous abortion of a dumpster fire that we went through when we tried to follow the Manning plan again.

Serious question, is it just the term "tanking" that bothers people? If we sign a pact to only refer to it as rebuilding, can we go ahead and just do it right this time? ""Explain to me why it is more noble to kill 10,000 men in battle than a dozen at dinner." - Tywin Lannister. It truly baffles me that our fans can live through a decade of pathetic, spiritless losing, but the idea of shipping off vets for draft capital and letting young guys go through some growing pains is morally reprehensible. How is going through a three win season, knowing that you're digging out of cap hell and developing younger, cheaper talent, so much worse than going through a five or six win season where you aren't doing a single thing to better position yourself for the future? I don't understand that attitude any more than I understand the Donkeys' "plan." It doesn't state anywhere in the NFL's by-laws that Denver isn't allowed to spend a high pick on a QB, or that the franchise is required to do eternal penance by spending the rest of its existence cycling through retreads and leftovers at QB because Elway sold our collective souls for a title.

Moral of the story; sure, you can find QBs anywhere. If you want to win a Super Bowl, you'll probably need to find one with actual talent, and most of them are found at the top of the draft. If you have the audacity to want to win multiple titles, you better find yourself a young one somewhere. I wish like hell we could find one. Having a CJ Stroud while we wait for Josh Allen to break his neck would be infinitely more fun than watching another decade or two of Ortons and Teddys. But Denver fans have such Stockholm Syndrome over the QB position that a perfectly legal strategic positioning maneuver feels like cheating to them.

Originally Posted by UnderArmour

The Chiefs did...

Originally Posted by Simple Jaded

Then traded up to get Mahomes, understood.

Who’d they draft before Mahomes that registers? Chris Jones? 2nd round pick. Tyreek? 4th round pick. Their roster was Meh when they won the first SB (aside from their Big Three), and it wasn’t until this last SB that they had a balanced roster.

It rarely works and the Broncos almost never trade up (especially in the 1st round and especially for a QB). The Broncos (and their fans) can’t keep hoping things will change, hope is not a strategy.

The Chiefs also had Alex Smith steering their ship as they did that. They had a highly drafted, elite game manager type guy keeping them relevant until they pounced on Mahomes. Name me the QB Denver has had not named Peyton that is as good as Alex Smith, we don't even have that going for us.

Originally Posted by dogfish

Okay, there's a whole lot to unpack here. To start, I said WIN a championship, so we can discount the 9ers and Panthers right out the gate.

That was one giant wall of text.

Originally Posted by dogfish

Okay, there's a whole lot to unpack here. To start, I said WIN a championship, so we can discount the 9ers and Panthers right out the gate. But if the goal is to consistently compete for titles (as it should be, reference Chazzy's post below yours), then the Texans are already big winners, because Stroud absolutely puts them on that road. We'll see whether they can reach the mountaintop, but I would sell both of our souls for a young QB like that.

Now, how many of the others that you named are following the Donkey's post- Peyton "plan?" None of them over the past two decades, really. If just plain getting wildly lucky qualifies as a "plan," then certainly the Rams with Warner would qualify. But the Seahawks don't. Yeah. they selected a QB in the middle rounds, but that's where the similarity ends. They gave Russ the opportunity to legitimately compete for the job in camp, and within a few weeks accepted that he was too talented to sit behind their journeyman bridge scrub Matt Flynn. They named him the week one starter, committed to him, and never looked back. Totally unlike Denver, who has leapt at any possible excuse to keep their drafted QBs on the bench for game-managing slappies. McDaniels got fired rather than put Tebow on the field, and Elway sent him packing as soon as he could. We literally never played Paxton Lynch at all. More a failure of scouting in that case, but the fact remains-- they played a rag-armed 6th round pick who was on their practice squad over the guy they traded up in the first round for. Then they stashed Lock on IR with a mostly phantom injury, and IIRC refused to play him until Flacco got hurt himself. Then they changed his OC in the off-season, and after a rough year they gave up on him. . . so they could play Teddy freaking Bridgewater. What a joke. The last time this franchise made an actual good faith effort to develop a highly drafted quarterback was Jay Cutler. That's almost twenty years ago. Not coincidentally, that's also the last time the Donks even tried to draft a QB in the top twenty picks. If you want to argue that Denver hasn't picked good QB prospects, it's unquestionably true, but I think you're ignoring the glaring fact that most of the great prospects go in the top 10-12 picks, almost every year. You can count the exceptions on one hand.

Which leads us to the Bucs, who signed the oldest, most wild outlier of a QB to ever play the sport. Is that a plan? If so, unless you're eying Aaron Rogers, I guess Mahomes is the next target. Are we gonna wait until he's 45 years old with his arm falling off, when the Chiefs finally don't want him anymore, then swoop in for a 1-2 year rental? Shit, he's like 28 right now. We can draft and try to actually develop three or four QBs in the meanwhile, easily. Aside from maybe missing out on another glorious 6-7 win season along the way, what could it hurt? Moving along to Staffy and Pey Pey, doesn't that actually reinforce my point? Those teams won Super Bowls with two QBs who were both drafted number one overall. And as you are well aware, Von's insane stretch of play was really the reason that the Donks got that ring. Von freaking Miller, who was drafted number two overall, because we sucked the year before. Having top talent helps, it really does. And Manning and Stafford were both available because they were coming off of major injuries. So, what's the plan there? Wait until Josh Allen is 35 years old and breaks either his neck or his back, then we get him on the cheap? Once again, what's the harm in trying to draft a young, healthy, talented QB with a high pick ourselves in the meantime? Not to mention the elephant in the room, which is the utterly disastrous abortion of a dumpster fire that we went through when we tried to follow the Manning plan again.

Serious question, is it just the term "tanking" that bothers people? If we sign a pact to only refer to it as rebuilding, can we go ahead and just do it right this time? ""Explain to me why it is more noble to kill 10,000 men in battle than a dozen at dinner." - Tywin Lannister. It truly baffles me that our fans can live through a decade of pathetic, spiritless losing, but the idea of shipping off vets for draft capital and letting young guys go through some growing pains is morally reprehensible. How is going through a three win season, knowing that you're digging out of cap hell and developing younger, cheaper talent, so much worse than going through a five or six win season where you aren't doing a single thing to better position yourself for the future? I don't understand that attitude any more than I understand the Donkeys' "plan." It doesn't state anywhere in the NFL's by-laws that Denver isn't allowed to spend a high pick on a QB, or that the franchise is required to do eternal penance by spending the rest of its existence cycling through retreads and leftovers at QB because Elway sold our collective souls for a title.

Moral of the story; sure, you can find QBs anywhere. If you want to win a Super Bowl, you'll probably need to find one with actual talent, and most of them are found at the top of the draft. If you have the audacity to want to win multiple titles, you better find yourself a young one somewhere. I wish like hell we could find one. Having a CJ Stroud while we wait for Josh Allen to break his neck would be infinitely more fun than watching another decade or two of Ortons and Teddys. But Denver fans have such Stockholm Syndrome over the QB position that a perfectly legal strategic positioning maneuver feels like cheating to them.

What I have shown through facts and history is you are not likely to get to a SB through tanking, by virtue that it has happened twice since the 2000s. Calling for "tanking" - ie not trying hard to win games/deciding to lose games/etc - has not proven to be a successful method for winning championships or competing for championships in any real way. What you have shown me is the Broncos are simply historically trash at drafting QBs. Lynch was never going to develop. BCL was never going to develop. Tebow? Lmao.

We have been #blessed to not have high first round draft picks very often. When we do have them or trade up and decide to choose a QB we choose the shitty ones. That's the bottom line. It doesn't require tanking to get a high enough draft pick to get a good QB - which is what everybody agrees we should be doing rather then getting some retread.

The Texans are not big winners yet. We have no idea whether or not they will compete for titles or be a one-and-done as many teams often are. Give them another season before you crown their ass!

Yeah, you didn’t really show that, though.

Originally Posted by BroncoJoe

That was one giant wall of text.

"Brilliant and insightful analysis" is what you meant to type, I believe.

The Broncos trying to draft and develop a QB:

Originally Posted by aberdien

The Broncos trying to draft and develop a QB:

Not my proudest moment.

Originally Posted by BroncoJoe

I appreciate you, Dog (or is it dog?).

Originally Posted by aberdien

What I have shown through facts and history is you are not likely to get to a SB through tanking, by virtue that it has happened twice since the 2000s. Calling for "tanking" - ie not trying hard to win games/deciding to lose games/etc - has not proven to be a successful method for winning championships or competing for championships in any real way. What you have shown me is the Broncos are simply historically trash at drafting QBs. Lynch was never going to develop. BCL was never going to develop. Tebow? Lmao.

We have been #blessed to not have high first round draft picks very often. When we do have them or trade up and decide to choose a QB we choose the shitty ones. That's the bottom line. It doesn't require tanking to get a high enough draft pick to get a good QB - which is what everybody agrees we should be doing rather then getting some retread.

The Texans are not big winners yet. We have no idea whether or not they will compete for titles or be a one-and-done as many teams often are. Give them another season before you crown their ass!

Okay, so yes, the term "tanking" is the problem. I'm glad we were able to clear that up. Now we can harmoniously proceed with our total rebuild. Let's goooooo!

I don’t get the “we need to draft our guy” argument

Until yesterday we were one of the winningest franchises in all of sports

It’s been a rough 8 years and I am not sure anyone could have predicted quite how bad Russ was - but the Trevor keesums of the world were only ever a bridge and never a planned solution


I would give up a fair bit to go get JJ but equally, I would be happy with another swing at Russ-like free agent

Oh wow.

Here we are.

I didn't really expect it to happen, and it's weird to have that flash of insight when you realize your fears are a real pair of red eyeballs in the darkness staring at you.

We ******* suck.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Oh wow.

Here we are.

I didn't really expect it to happen, and it's weird to have that flash of insight when you realize your fears are a real pair of red eyeballs in the darkness staring at you.

We ******* suck.

And we will for awhile.