Thread: Don't trade PS2. Don't suggest trading him. Your hot take is bad.

Originally Posted by UnderArmour

Chiefs and their zebra friends aside: Purdy was an UDFA, Hurts was a 2nd rounder and the Eagles invested heavily in their lines with their firsts historically, the Rams traded all their picks for Stafford Ramsay Miller, Bengals have Burrow but bad line has gotten him hurt, Tampa built a great roster and then added Brady.

The path back to a Lombardi is more following a blueprint more similar to the Bengals, 49ers, Eagles, or Bucs. None of these teams had fire sales. The Bengals had a solid defense the whole time, the 49ers built both lines, the Bucs had star WRs and kept them plus loads of defensive talent.

In real time, we are watching the Bears build the next powerhouse. They just re-signed their CB.

Again, you are looking at it from a lens of let's put a team together that can scrap and fight it's way to one world championship. That's all fine and good and may even workout once every 20+ years, but guess what, the KC Chiefs have matched our entire franchise's history of SB victories in the last 5 years and it pisses me off. If Denver wins the SB in 2028 because we've bandaged together some good team with an elite defense and some aging star QB (sound familiar) I'll be super ******* pumped, but I also know in my bones that we will also have watched another 2 at least KC wins, so how cool is that in all reality?
Build for a dynasty and the one offs will come also, that's my philosophy anyway. I've also seen the fallout from building these patchwork one off teams. Those teams very often self destruct and set the franchises back after their SB victories and it makes sense. If you build a team of mercenaries they do their job and move on to the next one for the highest bidder, it's what mercenaries do. That is exactly what our SB50 team was, a team of stone cold mercenaries and I love every one of them for it but I am ready to see it done a different way this time.

Originally Posted by King87

I wouldn't do it because he's cheap and a great player. But...much better players than him have been traded.

He won't be cheap next year, though. Elite players rarely ever play on the 5th year option.

Originally Posted by dogfish

He won't be cheap next year, though. Elite players rarely ever play on the 5th year option.

Machine Gun Round:

Sounds like you should have been in Baltimore's FO two years ago and saved those boys some money. Bwhahahahahaha.

Jokes aside, yeah. I get it. But it's cheaper to pay him in year four then watch him style in year five....

You don't want your team to be bereft of any and all talent as that slows a rebuild, too. But you don't want superfluous talent, either.

I remember telling y'all that Fields was the better pick because if you don't have a QB the CB doesn't matter. And given how he's still a viable QB after all of the Chicago nonsense, I am once again to remind you all of how amazing I am. Which you should all appreciate and honestly show more respect to my greatness.

Da 'Burgh reportedly offered a first rounder for him last season. I remember thinking he was worth more than that. Is he worth two first rounders? No. Kid's good, but let's be honest he's not played at some legendary level. He's a hoss, though.

Originally Posted by chazoe60

Again, you are looking at it from a lens of let's put a team together that can scrap and fight it's way to one world championship. That's all fine and good and may even workout once every 20+ years, but guess what, the KC Chiefs have matched our entire franchise's history of SB victories in the last 5 years and it pisses me off. If Denver wins the SB in 2028 because we've bandaged together some good team with an elite defense and some aging star QB (sound familiar) I'll be super ******* pumped, but I also know in my bones that we will also have watched another 2 at least KC wins, so how cool is that in all reality?
Build for a dynasty and the one offs will come also, that's my philosophy anyway. I've also seen the fallout from building these patchwork one off teams. Those teams very often self destruct and set the franchises back after their SB victories and it makes sense. If you build a team of mercenaries they do their job and move on to the next one for the highest bidder, it's what mercenaries do. That is exactly what our SB50 team was, a team of stone cold mercenaries and I love every one of them for it but I am ready to see it done a different way this time.

Okay... Let's go through Andy Reid's progression of when he got the keys to the Chiefs franchise.
2012 Chiefs: 2-14. Earned #1 overall pick in next draft. 6 Pro Bowlers: Jamaal Charles, Tamba Hali, Justin Houston, Derrick Johnson, Eric Berry, and Dustin Colquitt
--------------------------
Andy Reid arrives in offseason following 2-14 season.
2013 Chiefs: Andy Reid's first offseason he trades a 2nd for Alex Smith. Takes Eric Fisher OT #1 overall. Lands Kelce in round 3.
Resigns Dwayne Bowe and Brandon Albert. Signs Donnie Avery too, I guess.
Make playoffs and lose to Andrew Luck in Wild Card round.
10 Pro Bowlers: Alex Smith, Jamaal Charles, Branden Albert, Dontari Poe, Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Justin Houston, Brandon Flowers, Eric Berry, Dexter McCluster (returner)

2014: They let Tyson Jackson walk in FA. Let Brandon Albert walk in free agency. Very quiet offseason. Draft DE Dee Ford round 1 pick 23 (ends up being a solid player) but not much else.
They go 9-7. Mediocre season. Eric Berry gets pulled halfway through year because of cancer.
4 Pro Bowlers: Jamaal Charles, Tamba Hali, Justin Houston, Dontari Poe

2015: Jeremy Maclin is their big signing. They keep Houston. I guess they paid Tyvon Branch Raiders S too. They keep Justin Houston. Draft Marcus Peters round 1 pick 18 (ends up being a solid player). Trade for Ben Grubbs.
11-5. Lose to Patriots in Division round.
6 Pro Bowlers: Eric Berry, Tamba Hali, Justin Houston, Derrick Johnson, Travis Kelce, Marcus Peters

2016: They keep Eric Berry. They keep Tamba Hali. They keep Derrick Johnson. Draft Chris Jones in 2nd round and Tyreek Hill in 5th round (fell because he beats women).
12-4. Lose in division round again, this time to Steelers.
7 Pro Bowlers: Alex Smith, Travis Kelce, Marcus Peters, Eric Berry, Dustin Colquitt, Tyreek Hill, DJ Alexander

This is all BEFORE drafting Mahomes. They were a perennial playoff team that always competed every year...

2017: Keep Eric Berry. Poe leaves to Atlanta. They draft Mahomes in 1st and Kareem Hunt in 3rd.
Chiefs trade 1st (27th overall), 3rd (91 overall), and 2018 1st to move up with Buffalo (10 overall) and take Mahomes, who sits out the entire year except the Denver game.
The Chiefs finish 10-6, losing to Titans in Wild Card round.
4 Pro Bowlers: Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, Travis Kelce, and Alex Smith

The Chiefs never did a gutting of their roster to build a dynasty... They used guys like Derrick Johnson, Eric Berry, Tamba Hali, and Justin Houston to build a culture of winning and put the guys who would come after in positions to be successful.


If the Broncos follow the Chiefs model, it still doesn't involve tanking and it still doesn't involve a fire sale of your best players.

Y'all made UA write a ******* novel on your bitch asses. Do you know what it takes to get THAT man to write that much? I'm not going to read that potent power right now, but I just know y'all got hit with a 10-7 round.

Pretty sure he's saying that you can build a good team, compete, and then make a big move when the QBotF is available for drafting. But I don't know. Just a feeling.

UA styled on you hoes. I award him designation of a powerful title: Big Dancing.

Originally Posted by UnderArmour

Okay... Let's go through Andy Reid's progression of when he got the keys to the Chiefs franchise.
2012 Chiefs: 2-14. Earned #1 overall pick in next draft. 6 Pro Bowlers: Jamaal Charles, Tamba Hali, Justin Houston, Derrick Johnson, Eric Berry, and Dustin Colquitt
--------------------------
Andy Reid arrives in offseason following 2-14 season.
2013 Chiefs: Andy Reid's first offseason he trades a 2nd for Alex Smith. Takes Eric Fisher OT #1 overall. Lands Kelce in round 3.
Resigns Dwayne Bowe and Brandon Albert. Signs Donnie Avery too, I guess.
Make playoffs and lose to Andrew Luck in Wild Card round.
10 Pro Bowlers: Alex Smith, Jamaal Charles, Branden Albert, Dontari Poe, Tamba Hali, Derrick Johnson, Justin Houston, Brandon Flowers, Eric Berry, Dexter McCluster (returner)

2014: They let Tyson Jackson walk in FA. Let Brandon Albert walk in free agency. Very quiet offseason. Draft DE Dee Ford round 1 pick 23 (ends up being a solid player) but not much else.
They go 9-7. Mediocre season. Eric Berry gets pulled halfway through year because of cancer.
4 Pro Bowlers: Jamaal Charles, Tamba Hali, Justin Houston, Dontari Poe

2015: Jeremy Maclin is their big signing. They keep Houston. I guess they paid Tyvon Branch Raiders S too. They keep Justin Houston. Draft Marcus Peters round 1 pick 18 (ends up being a solid player). Trade for Ben Grubbs.
11-5. Lose to Patriots in Division round.
6 Pro Bowlers: Eric Berry, Tamba Hali, Justin Houston, Derrick Johnson, Travis Kelce, Marcus Peters

2016: They keep Eric Berry. They keep Tamba Hali. They keep Derrick Johnson. Draft Chris Jones in 2nd round and Tyreek Hill in 5th round (fell because he beats women).
12-4. Lose in division round again, this time to Steelers.
7 Pro Bowlers: Alex Smith, Travis Kelce, Marcus Peters, Eric Berry, Dustin Colquitt, Tyreek Hill, DJ Alexander

This is all BEFORE drafting Mahomes. They were a perennial playoff team that always competed every year...

2017: Keep Eric Berry. Poe leaves to Atlanta. They draft Mahomes in 1st and Kareem Hunt in 3rd.
Chiefs trade 1st (27th overall), 3rd (91 overall), and 2018 1st to move up with Buffalo (10 overall) and take Mahomes, who sits out the entire year except the Denver game.
The Chiefs finish 10-6, losing to Titans in Wild Card round.
4 Pro Bowlers: Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, Travis Kelce, and Alex Smith

The Chiefs never did a gutting of their roster to build a dynasty... They used guys like Derrick Johnson, Eric Berry, Tamba Hali, and Justin Houston to build a culture of winning and put the guys who would come after in positions to be successful.


If the Broncos follow the Chiefs model, it still doesn't involve tanking and it still doesn't involve a fire sale of your best players.

In which of those years did the Chiefs have an $85 million cap hit?

Originally Posted by spikerman

In which of those years did the Chiefs have an $85 million cap hit?

The Chiefs had lots of money tied up in their high draft picks from previous years. Until 2011, what picks were making was uncapped. Tyson Jackson (Pick 3) had a 5 year, $57 million deal in 2009. Eric Berry (Pick 5) had a 6 year, $60 million deal in 2010. The Chiefs tagged Albert during Reid's first offseason.

One of the reasons they kept getting stuck before Andy Reid was because they had money tied up in guys like Matt Cassel and Glenn Dorsey. Tyson Jackson was never worth his salary. However, once they were able to clear some of the dead weight they no longer wanted like Brandon Albert and Tyson Jackson, they were able to start getting cap space back to sign guys like Maclin while being able to bring back Tamba Hali, Eric Berry, Poe, Houston, etc.

Wilson won't be $85 million at once. Looks like it will be $53 million this year and $35 million next year. The Packers were able to get out of their Rodgers situation last year, and it looks like Denver is going to have to experience a tight space this year, be uncomfortable next year but workable next year, and be free and clear in 2026. There shouldn't be any issues next offseason signing free agents if that's the route the team goes.

I suggest that we trade PS2 as soon as possible.

Include him in a package to move up for JJ Mac!!!!

Originally Posted by King87

Y'all made UA write a ******* novel on your bitch asses. Do you know what it takes to get THAT man to write that much? I'm not going to read that potent power right now, but I just know y'all got hit with a 10-7 round.

Pretty sure he's saying that you can build a good team, compete, and then make a big move when the QBotF is available for drafting. But I don't know. Just a feeling.

UA styled on you hoes. I award him designation of a powerful title: Big Dancing.

That's all fine and good and if PS2 played LT or Edge I would agree. For me this is almost exclusively about positional value. I'm also reading the tea leaves and don't see us being in position to pay him when it comes up and we are at risk of having what happened to the Panthers with Burns to happen to us.

Just like the Broncos to have one of the best players on the planet but at a position that doesn't help bad teams be good but that helps good teams be great. That's just how I view that position. I mean, I guess having one of the best CBs in the world has helped us beat Mahomes once.

When we inevitably let him walk or go through the franchise tag DB diva debacle that is almost unavoidable at this point we're all going to be wishing we had struck when the iron is hot. But, I suppose we'll always have that one win against Mahomes and the maybe 15 or 16 wins (on the high end) we accumulate the next couple of years while we have him. I for one am pumped about it.

I agree that "rebuilding" is mostly BS. What is the last team in "rebuild" mode that was actually successful afterwards?


But based on how the FO has gotten rid of all of our talent already, might as well sell high on the CB who will lose value playing for this dumpster fire of a team next year.

Originally Posted by aberdien

I agree that "rebuilding" is mostly BS. What is the last team in "rebuild" mode that was actually successful afterwards?


But based on how the FO has gotten rid of all of our talent already, might as well sell high on the CB who will lose value playing for this dumpster fire of a team next year.

Philly was the last team that blew it up and then had success. At least the last team I remember doing it.

BTW, I think we need to define “rebuild”, I’m not sure that letting go of Russ and Simmons really counts.

Just think if we’d have cut bait with, I dunno, Jerry Jeudy when the writing was on the wall and the iron was hot. The Browns originally offered us like a 3rd and 5th for him at the deadline. That became a 5th and 6th when everyone realized we weren’t gonna bring him back. Instead we kept him around for what, 1 total TD?

We might be able to trade PS2 for a top ten pick in this year’s draft (or 2 later round firsts this year and next). Instead we’ll probably make him the highest paid DB in the league to not actually shutdown the other team’s top target while we fellate him for being the best player on a losing team and not being able to afford to re-sign other players or FAs. Or, even better, PS2 doesn’t want to be here, won’t re-sign but we’ll hold on to him until the end hoping we can get him to stay (once he stops his 5th year option holdout where he demands a trade) and then he’ll end up a FA and we’ll get nothing.

Originally Posted by chazoe60

That's all fine and good and if PS2 played LT or Edge I would agree. For me this is almost exclusively about positional value. I'm also reading the tea leaves and don't see us being in position to pay him when it comes up and we are at risk of having what happened to the Panthers with Burns to happen to us.

Just like the Broncos to have one of the best players on the planet but at a position that doesn't help bad teams be good but that helps good teams be great. That's just how I view that position. I mean, I guess having one of the best CBs in the world has helped us beat Mahomes once.

When we inevitably let him walk or go through the franchise tag DB diva debacle that is almost unavoidable at this point we're all going to be wishing we had struck when the iron is hot. But, I suppose we'll always have that one win against Mahomes and the maybe 15 or 16 wins (on the high end) we accumulate the next couple of years while we have him. I for one am pumped about it.

Who else is this team going to pay? Bolles, Meinerz, and Browning might get big deals next offseason, but even if all 3 got top 10 position deals there would still be room to re-sign PS2 with a record deal.

PS2 isn't Burns. PS2 is the #1 player at his position and will receive a contract that beats everyone else at his position. This isn't a franchise with a loser owner that throws drinks on fans like Carolina and Denver isn't home to a fanbase that doesn't care about the team. A PS2 deal will get done while he is on his 5th year option or after 1 franchise tag.

Also, recent history suggests that if you want to maximize your return for a player, it needs to either be done with a moron/stupid/desperate GM (George Paton or Carolina last year) or be done in season before the trade deadline. Pre-deadline Chubb for a first, Carolina apparently had an offer for 2 firsts last trade deadline, Jalen Ramsay for 2 firsts a few years ago... Value gets elevated for instant impact players.

Originally Posted by aberdien

I agree that "rebuilding" is mostly BS. What is the last team in "rebuild" mode that was actually successful afterwards?


But based on how the FO has gotten rid of all of our talent already, might as well sell high on the CB who will lose value playing for this dumpster fire of a team next year.

How about the Detroit Lions? They essentially blew up their roster trading away all their top players. They even traded their franchise QB in Stafford for a guy who had failed in a QB’s dreamworld playing for the mighty Sean McVay (Goff). They took it on the chin, got a disciplinarian, hard-nosed coach, and rebuilt through the draft. They made one of the largest turnarounds in history and are now a playoff team that looks like they will be for awhile. They were actually a SB favorite for awhile last year. That’s what I want. I think we have a coach that can make it happen, but we have to get the QB. It’s the only position where the requirement is above average or better to be successful as a team.

Originally Posted by aberdien

I agree that "rebuilding" is mostly BS. What is the last team in "rebuild" mode that was actually successful afterwards?


But based on how the FO has gotten rid of all of our talent already, might as well sell high on the CB who will lose value playing for this dumpster fire of a team next year.

The Bengals with Burrow and the Browns with Baker come to mind. The Lions rebuilt their roster, albeit unconventionally. Those are just NFL teams from the Northern division. The Niners did a successful rebuild with both Harbaugh and Shanny Jr. I'd have to check the dates, but I'm pretty sure the Giants were rebuilding with Eli after having some postseason success.

A rebuild doesn't mean you have to gut every last player on the roster. And a partial rebuild is more akin to what teams who might be bad for one year and then bounce back do.