Thread: Learning the Guitar - Looking for Advice

So, I’m an old man trying to learn the guitar. I have been tinkering on it for years, but I’m finally taking the time to learn a lot of the basics. My question is, since I’m never going to be a professional, or likely very good, is it important for me to learn things like scales, etc? I’ve already found that I will never learn all of the chords, there are way too many, but I’m learning a decent amount. By the way, there’s a special place in Hell for whoever invented the F chord. Anyway, if there are any experienced players out there, I’d love to get some advice or tips.

Originally Posted by spikerman

So, I’m an old man trying to learn the guitar. I have been tinkering on it for years, but I’m finally taking the time to learn a lot of the basics. My question is, since I’m never going to be a professional, or likely very good, is it important for me to learn things like scales, etc? I’ve already found that I will never learn all of the chords, there are way too many, but I’m learning a decent amount. By the way, there’s a special place in Hell for whoever invented the F chord. Anyway, if there are any experienced players out there, I’d love to get some advice or tips.

:subscribed:

It depends on what you're looking to get out of playing guitar.

If you just want to be able to play and sing a few songs on acoustic guitar for fun, I would suggest almost exclusively practicing chords. If you can learn a handful of chords, you can play a lot of songs. A lot of the work is building up finger strength so that each string sounds good when you play the chords, and then switching form chord to chord. Once you learn chords, then you can add in some extra stuff as you go along.

If you are more interested in playing guitar solos or fingerpicking and stuff like that, learning scales and where individual notes are would have more value.

I got an acoustic guitar for Christmas (just an entry level Fender Squire) and am blowing through lessons on Justin Guitar which is mostly free (you can donate, buy DVDs etc.) but it gives you a good idea if you even want to learn the damn thing: https://www.justinguitar.com/

You can check out the first lesson here: https://www.justinguitar.com/classes...urse-grade-one

You start with things like A, D, C, & G chords and do little exercises on strumming/finger placement etc. Early on you even learn things that seem basic but make a big difference, like how to hold a pick (spoiler: I was doing it WRONG lol)

The thing I like most is that he really builds foundations and has you move on from that. When you learn the A & D chords, for example, you learn that if you place your fingers right you can switch those chords easily and then you ramp up to a 1 minute change exercise. The cool thing about that is you can practice and see results. Within a few weeks I was doing 8 changes and I doubled and tripled that pretty quick just by doing them on lunch breaks or in the evening.

You play some pretty easy songs like Give Peace a Chance and figure out timing and strumming pretty quick, so its cool and makes you feel like you are progressing even after only learning a few chords.

I jump in and out of lessons with that and go to Marty Music on YouTube for fantastic song breakdowns. Once I got the basic chords down (and got to love the E chord), I realized most songs can be broken down easily and he does a great job at it. For example, while I can't play the whole thing quite yet I will learn the beginning of the song and just practice the opening riff over and over. Disarm is a good example:



Learn the basics, take lots of breaks, and get past that finger pain and its really fun! Its amazing how you can almost play tons of songs just with some beginner lessons. I don't know how far I will take it, but its really fun as long as you realize its all practice and buildup.

Great advice so far.

The hardest thing is finding the time. I started when I was just out of college and had the summer off. I had nothing to do all day. That continued into pilot training, while I was waiting 6 months for my class to begin.

It's harder for grownups just because of life.

But if you have some empty hours, have at 'er. There's not really a shortcut to developing that muscle/mind memory, it takes reps. I am kind of intense when it comes to getting good at something, I'd challenge myself to see how fast I could keep a steady tempo while switching between random chords. With the apps these days, I bet there's a way to set up a randomizer with all the chords you know, and try to do it to a metronome, then increase the tempo. Learning any given song isn't much different, except you can anticipate the new chord and master particular chord transitions...and heck maybe you end up playing it at a campfire or whatever.

My only advice is not to content yourself with merely being able to play a chord, keep striving to play clean. No unintended strings making noise, and each played string properly strummed or picked so it sounds nice. Sometimes you might need to mute a string or two, that can require extra mental effort. Sometimes it's awkward fingering and you need to press *one* string harder than seems possible, but you do it. It's easy to content yourself at the 'hey, that's not bad' stage, but in the long run the habit of sounding clean will be worth it to your listeners.

Specific advice about scales and theory etc really depends on what you want to do. Is there a song you have in mind? A style? Improvising? Fingerpicking? 0-troubadour in 2.9 seconds?

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Great advice so far.

The hardest thing is finding the time. I started when I was just out of college and had the summer off. I had nothing to do all day. That continued into pilot training, while I was waiting 6 months for my class to begin.

It's harder for grownups just because of life.

But if you have some empty hours, have at 'er. There's not really a shortcut to developing that muscle/mind memory, it takes reps. I am kind of intense when it comes to getting good at something, I'd challenge myself to see how fast I could keep a steady tempo while switching between random chords. With the apps these days, I bet there's a way to set up a randomizer with all the chords you know, and try to do it to a metronome, then increase the tempo. Learning any given song isn't much different, except you can anticipate the new chord and master particular chord transitions...and heck maybe you end up playing it at a campfire or whatever.

My only advice is not to content yourself with merely being able to play a chord, keep striving to play clean. No unintended strings making noise, and each played string properly strummed or picked so it sounds nice. Sometimes you might need to mute a string or two, that can require extra mental effort. Sometimes it's awkward fingering and you need to press *one* string harder than seems possible, but you do it. It's easy to content yourself at the 'hey, that's not bad' stage, but in the long run the habit of sounding clean will be worth it to your listeners.

Specific advice about scales and theory etc really depends on what you want to do. Is there a song you have in mind? A style? Improvising? Fingerpicking? 0-troubadour in 2.9 seconds?

Great advice! My new rule is if I have time to screw around more than 15 minutes on my phone I ca do at least 5-10 minutes on finger placement/chord switching. I’m also starting to learn muting effects for fun it’s cool how many directions you can take it.

That’s great spike! I’ve been playing bass for about 36 years now (I also play guitar). My advice more than just practicing scales or even chords is to train your ear and get your rhythm down. At first it’s easier just to use barre chords or better yet “power chords” (root, fifth, octave) and play along with music as best you can to train yourself how to “learn by ear” and work on timing, rhythm, picking, etc.

Most music is 3 or 4 chord songs. Unless you plan to play classical, flamenco, or really extreme prog metal, working on your timing and simple chord phrasing is more important (and more fun) than just practicing chords, theory, and scales all the time. Those things will come, but if you can play along with songs you like, you’re much more likely to stick with it, IMO.

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

That’s great spike! I’ve been playing bass for about 36 years now (I also play guitar). My advice more than just practicing scales or even chords is to train your ear and get your rhythm down. At first it’s easier just to use barre chords or better yet “power chords” (root, fifth, octave) and play along with music as best you can to train yourself how to “learn by ear” and work on timing, rhythm, picking, etc.

Most music is 3 or 4 chord songs. Unless you plan to play classical, flamenco, or really extreme prog metal, working on your timing and simple chord phrasing is more important (and more fun) than just practicing chords, theory, and scales all the time. Those things will come, but if you can play along with songs you like, you’re much more likely to stick with it, IMO.

Yeah, if I could do one thing better it would be to play by ear. I appear to be tone deaf. I’d love any tips or tricks for getting better at it. I kind of subscribe to the Eddie Van Halen theory - if it sounds right, it is right.

Start by buying a guitar. Many beginners buy drums, and it goes downhill from there.

Zing!

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

That’s great spike! I’ve been playing bass for about 36 years now (I also play guitar). My advice more than just practicing scales or even chords is to train your ear and get your rhythm down. At first it’s easier just to use barre chords or better yet “power chords” (root, fifth, octave) and play along with music as best you can to train yourself how to “learn by ear” and work on timing, rhythm, picking, etc.

Most music is 3 or 4 chord songs. Unless you plan to play classical, flamenco, or really extreme prog metal, working on your timing and simple chord phrasing is more important (and more fun) than just practicing chords, theory, and scales all the time. Those things will come, but if you can play along with songs you like, you’re much more likely to stick with it, IMO.

Can I pile on to this?

After playing guitar and piano for myself for a long ass time, I finally got around to playing with others (now on bass too! lol I suck but it's fun as hell) and love it way more.*

Spike, the first chance you get, once you start to feel comfortable with the basics and can make some pleasing noises, is do what HP says. Spotify is filled with a billion different backing tracks, so is youtube. Drum loops. Whatever. Just play along, record it if you like it, play along with some of them that have certain chords or keys. Have fun with it. Search for music that you make that just feels good in your bones, you can't mistake it because you'll get lost in it. And once you get lost, go deeper in the forest.

The most fun I've had lately is finding a groove on bass with a y/t drum loop and turning it into a jam sesh with some other dudes. Really wish I'd made more of an effort to play in a band.

*on second thought, it's pretty hard to top a Chopin nocturne on solo piano as far as making music goes

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Can I pile on to this?

After playing guitar and piano for myself for a long ass time, I finally got around to playing with others (now on bass too! lol I suck but it's fun as hell) and love it way more.*

Spike, the first chance you get, once you start to feel comfortable with the basics and can make some pleasing noises, is do what HP says. Spotify is filled with a billion different backing tracks, so is youtube. Drum loops. Whatever. Just play along, record it if you like it, play along with some of them that have certain chords or keys. Have fun with it. Search for music that you make that just feels good in your bones, you can't mistake it because you'll get lost in it. And once you get lost, go deeper in the forest.

The most fun I've had lately is finding a groove on bass with a y/t drum loop and turning it into a jam sesh with some other dudes. Really wish I'd made more of an effort to play in a band.

*on second thought, it's pretty hard to top a Chopin nocturne on solo piano as far as making music goes

Thanks guys.

I’ll look for some of those. I can play the rhythm parts to a few songs and I think the backing tracks would be extremely helpful. I really appreciate it.

Ok, so, when it comes to keys, how do I know which key a song is in? I always assumed that the first chord told you the key. Also, for the sake of simplicity, let’s say that a song’s chord progression is C, A, D but then I find out that the key should actually be in D, does that change the progression to D, B, E? Sorry, I know these are probably laughably basic to you guys.

Re: 'key'

Imagine a piano with the white keys and black keys.



Notice there are 12 distinct tones that repeat. These are C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B. All the sharped notes could be named with a flat instead, e.g., C# is Db and so on.

There is nothing special about any one of these notes--the western music system of equal-temperament tuning relies on the idea that any individual note can be called the root (also, this is called 'key'). What is cool about this western system is that you can transpose any piece of music to another key by simply shifting every single note up or down that many 'steps' (each of those 12 notes being a 'step', or sometimes called a 'half-step'--going up two notes would be called going up a 'full-step').

For example, if I have a song with the chords D-G-Am-C, and it's in the key of G, I could play the same musical expression in any key by simply moving each note up or down the exact number of steps that I move the key. So if I wanted to play that chord progression in the key of C, I'd move every note down seven steps. Thus my D (major) chord, which consists of D-F#-A, would each be moved down 7 steps to G-B-D, and form the chord G (major). The D-G-Am-C would become G-C-Dm-F. It would sound exactly the same, but at a different pitch.

This idea of key is super useful as a shorthand for 'what notes can I play, what chords?' Going back to the piano keyboard, notice all the white keys (C thru B without sharps/flats). These seven notes comprise the 'permissible' notes in the key of C--or I should say, they are the notes that correspond to the major scale with C as the root.

From this scale, you can form several basic chords: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, B° (diminished). In music theory you would call these chords the I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, and vii°. The upper case roman numeral means major chord, the lower case means minor chord.

These chords will sound congruent, pleasing, natural. Some progressions have greater emotional movement, for example, the V chord always loves to land on the I chord. There is a sense of closure and satisfaction as the notes in the V chord move to land on the I chord (in particular, if we use the key of C as an example, the G chord (GBD), you have that B note that creates tension and dissonance and wants to resolve to the C. To get a little deeper, a chord that wants to resolve even more to the root chord is the V7, or 'seventh' chord, which in this case would be GBD plus the 7th: F. This may be a little advanced, but that 'F' is the 4th degree in the scale of C. This 4th degree is actually quite dissonant among the notes in the major scale, and it *really* wants to land on the 3rd degree of the scale, i.e., the E. So the G7 chord has both the F that lands on the E of CEG, and the B that lands on the C of CEG.

You can have fun for hours just messing around with these degrees of the major scale--playing a I-ii-IV-V progression, or a ii-iii-V-I, or a simple I-IV-I-IV, etc.

One thing I should point out that wasn't immediately obvious to me: there's nothing special about any particular named note. Think of them as 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 instead of C, Gb, F#, Bb, A, etc. At least for a second, mentally strip away the idea that they are letters or colored piano keys. Think of them as 12 equally spaced numbers that repeat over and over. The "0" could be an A, or a C, or an F#, it's an arbitrary decision that someone made long ago. This will help with what I'm about to explain.

The major scale is simply this pattern: 0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11. Whether the "0" is a C, or an Ab, or whatever, it's always that number of steps between notes. It always goes 2 (C to D), 2 (D to E), 1 (E to F), 2 (F to G), 2 (G to A), 2 (A to B), 1 (B back to root C) in terms of number of steps between. Every major triad always has the pattern 0, 4, 7, and every minor triad always has the pattern 0, 3, 7. Every 7th chord is 0, 4, 7, 10...every maj7th chord is 0, 4, 7, 11. Every augmented chord is 0, 4, 8, and every diminished chord, whatever the key is, is 0, 3, 6. Every "add 9" chord is 0, 2, 4, 7--but it in some music it may sound better as 0, 4, 7, 14--that is, playing a particular note an octave higher.

Now, if you stick to all the notes in the major scale of the key of the music, say if you were to improvise a melody or something, it's going to sound ok--maybe even good or great. You will probably not hit any clangers that make a listener pop a huge cartoon "?" when they hear it.

But this can get incredibly "samey" if that is all a song ever did.

Great songs have little surprises and deft movements away from using strictly those notes in the major scale.

As a super simple example, let's consider a song that starts in the key of C but then changes into the key of Am during a chorus or something. Hey, yeah, I just introduced the idea of a minor key. Remember that pattern that every major scale follows--0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11? Or, in terms of the distance between each successive note--2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1? There's a similar pattern for the minor scale. That sequence is 0, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10 (don't try to memorize this), or, in intervals--2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2. It's actually the same interval pattern, except it starts from the bolded '2' above. That is, every minor scale perfectly overlaps a corresponding major scale because they both have the same pattern, just displaced by 2 + 1 steps. To make it perfectly clear: the notes of the A minor scale are exactly the notes of the C major scale. Except, crucially, it begins at A and not C.

However, with a minor key, there are huge differences. Mainly, the root sound is a minor chord, so you got that 'minor key' feel to it. Also, instead of having access to the chords I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, and vii°, you now have access to i, ii°, III, iv, v, VI, and VII. Those same progression ideas turn out differently, the chord transitions have different emotional color to them. It's kind of weird considering you are playing the exact same notes.

So that's the most obvious way to prevent your music from sounding too 'samey'--switch it up to the 'relative minor' of whatever major scale you are playing.

But wait there's more!

This, too, can get pretty samey. And, importantly, there's really no absolute or rule that you have to follow this structure. It's just the baseline template. Play what sounds good, who cares how it works 'in theory'.

But, sticking with traditional tropes, the next thing you might do to shake up your music and give it some movement, or to give your listener a nice surprise, is to change the key even more. This means introducing new notes. As a general rule, the fewer notes you change, the smoother the transition. Maybe smoother isn't what the music calls for, then hey, do what sounds good. But it tends to be more common to find a key change that only introduces a couple or so of new notes. Or one.

This is where that circle of fifths thing comes useful. So remember that major scale pattern of 0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11? Well, if you apply that same sequence of intervals, but start at the "7" (for example, key of C, "G" is the 7), you would get these notes (using the same 0=C idea): 0, 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11. There is only one note that is different: the "5" becomes a "6" (i.e., the F becomes an F#). This is the key of G. This same idea works going in the opposite direction, as you would expect of things mathy--if you apply the same major scale pattern but start at the "5" (this is the same as going down by 7), you get 0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10--the B becomes a Bb--this is the key of F. Check out one of those circle of fifths pictures from the interwebs.

Moving to a nearby scale like this is a cool way of introducing a change to spice up the music.

Now, to finally answer your question--if a song's progression is C A D, and the key should actually be in D, should the 'new' progression in the proper key (of D) become D B E?

Well, we don't know what the original key is. If we infer the key from the chords C, A, D--that is, what key permits all those major chords--we do not know what key it is. There is no major key that has those chords. So (unless one or more is supposed to be a minor chord), we kinda have to guess a key that would work the best. In this case, the strongest resolution is the A to the D--going from the V chord (A) to the I chord (D), if we assume that the key is D. For clarity, the key of D allows these chords in the major scale: D, Em, F#m, G, A, Bm, C#°. Notice that there is no C major. There is no "C" in the key of D, if we are being precise. However, the notes E and G are both within the key, so it's not a super weird thing to just borrow the C for a little bit and maybe give it back later. And if it sounds pretty tasty, we may never give it back.

This kind of thing is the norm with good, interesting songs. Breaking the 'rules' if it sounds good. In fact, just about every great form of music is just a form of 'hey, let's break a rule and double down'.

So it seems the original key is in D, if those are the only chords--you wouldn't change the progression to different chords if you "moved it" to the key of D--it's already there.

As far as the first chord being the key--nope. You can have whole songs, great songs, that never actually use the I chord, but dance around it.

I know I went kinda deep, but hope this jumpstarts your dive into music theory.