Thread: Gruden out in Vegas

Originally Posted by Mozzafiato

Good read here that gets to the heart of the issue.

That was the most pathetic piece of shit article I’ve ever read

Here you go Shane.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

Here you go Shane.

I think a wise man, just yesterday, warned us about trusting these types of assertions...

Originally Posted by Tned

I think a wise man, just yesterday, warned us about trusting these types of assertions...

Huh? Are you talking about the Tim Brown thing? Because that'd be a fairly ridiculous comparison. Fisher would 100% know if the NFL did or didn't tell him to do something. Brown wouldn't 100% know about who gruden is behind closed doors.

Or were you talking about something else?

Originally Posted by Fangios Meatballs

That was the most pathetic piece of shit article I’ve ever read

It wouldn’t surprise me if it was from a liberal hardcore democrat dude...

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

Huh? Are you talking about the Tim Brown thing? Because that'd be a fairly ridiculous comparison. Fisher would 100% know if the NFL did or didn't tell him to do something. Brown wouldn't 100% know about who gruden is behind closed doors.

Or were you talking about something else?

Would he really want to be emasculated by admitting the league pulled his strings?

Originally Posted by Tned

Would he really want to be emasculated by admitting the league pulled his strings?

That theory in general is one I find fairly ridiculous on its face, regardless of what Fisher has said. Sam was the SEC defensive player of the year. Even if he was undersized, I don't find it that farfetched that a team would take a flier on a guy with that kind of college production in that conference in the 7th. IIRC, he was projected as a mid to late round guy before he made his revelation.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

That theory in general is one I find fairly ridiculous on its face, regardless of what Fisher has said. Sam was the SEC defensive player of the year. Even if he was undersized, I don't find it that farfetched that a team would take a flier on a guy with that kind of college production in that conference in the 7th. IIRC, he was projected as a mid to late round guy before he made his revelation.

To be fair, he was projected as a 3rd-4th round choice. Then he had a terrible combine performance.

Originally Posted by BroncoJoe

To be fair, he was projected as a 3rd-4th round choice. Then he had a terrible combine performance.

Which would make sense that he fell to the 7th. Take a flier on a guy who is flawed but had amazing college production in the best conference.

In general I'm just not a conspiracy guy and feel like the simplest explanation to something is usually the right one.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

That theory in general is one I find fairly ridiculous on its face, regardless of what Fisher has said. Sam was the SEC defensive player of the year. Even if he was undersized, I don't find it that farfetched that a team would take a flier on a guy with that kind of college production in that conference in the 7th. IIRC, he was projected as a mid to late round guy before he made his revelation.

The only point I was making was how you discount the statements of co-workers and subordinates (Brown, Dungy, Tirico, etc.) that don't fit your narrative of Gruden being a blatant racist, but accept statements that counter one of the things Gruden stated in a "private" email exchange with friends.

There are generational differences that don't fit neatly in the redefined correctness pushed by academics and adopted by many. It's like Biden or Trump telling stories and using Indian accents when discussing telemarketers or 7/11 owners. Until recently, whether it was comedians, or politicians or idiots like us posting on forums, it was ok to joke about people's appearances, heritage, etc. Pollock jokes. Guineas, wops, mics, cans, etc. Even if they have an ancient origin that was negative or disparaging, over time they become part of pop culture and more times than not were used in non offensive ways. However, even when used in irritation or derogatory way, it's often at a person, not a race.

Fact is that even though your generation and academics have managed to redefine what is OK, it's impossible to reprogram people that grew up in a more reasonable and common sense based society. Someone like Gruden could be married to a black person and not have a racist bone in his body, and still could make the personal attack on the union head with the tire comment, just like he might have good friends that were fat and refer to someone as a fat *******, etc.

Life simply isn't as black and white as the younger generation and academics want to make it out. Just like I don't think Biden is a blatant racist for multiple times using an Indian accent when telling stories, I don't immediately conclude that Gruden is a blatant racist for attacking one person who he blamed for the NFL lockout, when his black co-workers have repeatedly stated the exact opposite.

Gruden was stupid enough to believe that emails were private, and he's paying the price, but as I think it was Slim that said it, even if I disagree with some of what he wrote and wouldn't do so myself (in email or spoken word), I don't agree with how we destroy people's livelihoods with these witch hunts.

My take on Tim Brown's quote had nothing to do with gruden specifically. I 100% believe him when he says he never saw any racism from gruden. My only point was that as a general rule in life for me, I don't think you ever really truly know any person and how they are in their most private moments. I'm not saying I don't believe Brown, I just always take statements like that from anyone with a grain of salt.

Fisher very well might be lying, but he at least 100% knows if that claim is true or not. Brown or any other person who interacts with gruden couldn't possibly know 100% what he feels in his heart.

EDIT: Throwing in an edit here to tell a real life story of how you never really know a person. There was a doctor my wife used to work with, by all her many interactions with him she said he was an amazing guy to work with, always incredibly nice to everyone, was great with patients, students, and other doctors, basically the shining example of everything a doctor should strive to be. A few years later, he was busted for having a spy camera set up in the women's bathroom and had hundreds of hours of footage on his computer. Basically turned out to be the biggest creep possible. My wife and everyone else who worked with him was completely stunned and it was universally agreed he was the last person they'd expect that from. I tell this story to say no matter how amazing someone seems at work, you just never truly know the person they are when no one is looking.

As to the rest of your ramblings regarding my generation/academics/Biden, that shit all belongs in P&R and I'm not going to indulge it in here. I left that section for a reason. Not gonna let you bait me into taking about it.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

My take on Tim Brown's quote had nothing to do with gruden specifically. I 100% believe him when he says he never saw any racism from gruden. My only point was that as a general rule in life for me, I don't think you ever really truly know any person and how they are in their most private moments. I'm not saying I don't believe Brown, I just always take statements like that from anyone with a grain of salt.

And Brown's point was that you do see it, he does see it, he normally gets a sense when dealing with racists, and he never got that sense with Gruden. Same with Dungy and Tirico.

Fisher very well might be lying, but he at least 100% knows if that claim is true or not. Brown or any other person who interacts with gruden couldn't possibly know 100% what he feels in his heart.

This "in his heart" thing is so overused. What does that even mean? A heart pumps blood, first of all. So, he's either consciously a racist, or as you guys like to claim, subconsciously. Brown's point was that if either was the case, he would have picked up a sign, and he never did.

As to the rest of your ramblings regarding my generation/academics/Biden, that shit all belongs in P&R and I'm not going to indulge it in here. I left that section for a reason. Not gonna let you bait me into taking about it.

I don't really think it's P&R, because it isn't left/right (Trump and Biden both mocked Indians), I'm explaining to you that there is a generational thing that young people don't get. It's not political, it's fact. When dealing with older generations, especially those in their 70s or 80s, but even those in their 50's and 60s, they don't think saying "a couple guineas throwing pies" is going to cause someone to go into apoplectic fits and act like the author of such a heinous statement is calling for the genocide of all of Italian birth (ignoring the fact that the author is of Italian heritage).

We are from a "sticks and stones may break our bones, but words will never hurt us generation." Calling a kid a name at school wasn't bullying, it was just a day that ended in "y." Saying, "hey you mic *******" when a friend walked in the bar, or when you were pissed at a drunk in a bar, wasn't an ethnic slur worthy of banishment of the planet, it's just how you communicated.

You can discount it, but that's because you are from a different generation. A generation that feels anything that could possibly offend anyone is wrong. Gruden, Biden and so many others, are from a different generation. That doesn't make them evil. It doesn't even make them racist. It's like someone posted about Andrew Dice Clay, and it applies to any number of other comedians, or late night hosts that said and did things 15 or 25 years ago, that would have them cancelled today.

Originally Posted by Tned

And Brown's point was that you do see it, he does see it, he normally gets a sense when dealing with racists, and he never got that sense with Gruden. Same with Dungy and Tirico.

I edited this post while your were replying with a real life example of how you don't always see it.

Also, to reiterate. As I've said multiple times, I think several of the things that Gruden wrote were wrong and I would never do it, like how he referred to Smith (I would have other choice names for him, as I also don't like how he handled the CBA negotiations, but it wouldn't be about his lips or the like).

By the way, when I explain the generational thing, it isn't to excuse a Biden or Gruden or anyone else, it's just trying to share the facts that some haven't been exposed to, because of a different world they grew up in. I have friends and relatives older than me, many of them that are very good friends with minorities, black or otherwise, have them in their family, etc., but have also told what I consider VERY off color jokes, that I would never do, at that was the "me" of 30 years ago. Because, for instance, I don't think I've ever used the N word in my life, but have been around people that did and didn't even think of it as wrong, and who were not "racist" in the terms you guys think of it.

There truly is a generational difference. I'm on the cusp of where things changed, and I'm sure depending on the part of the country you lived in, the change occurred at different times.