Thread: Gruden out in Vegas

Originally Posted by slim

I like how you went out of your way to say “personal email”!!

Everyone says stupid shit sometimes. It doesn’t mean they should lose their job or be ostracized.

Does anyone really think that an NFL head coach made personnel decisions based on race?

Does anyone really think that it might not happen? If someone's relaxed with racism, and you're talking about a league that has an issue with hiring black coaches, in a predominately black league, we're not exactly reaching to wonder.

Originally Posted by King87

Does anyone really think that it might not happen? If someone's relaxed with racism, and you're talking about a league that has an issue with hiring black coaches, in a predominately black league, we're not exactly reaching to wonder.

Win or get fired. Quick, how many minorities did he hire during his tenure?

Originally Posted by King87

But we also know that these things happen. For instance, in Deflategate Brady got all ******* cowardly -because he did it- and destroyed his phone. Even though the CBA allowed for investigators to go through those records in light of a scandal. I know that if I use my personal email and send a message to another lawyer -they could be my homie, a contact, context doesn't really matter- there's that chance my shit gets pulled up in certain contexts. I'm not trying to 'rebut' your point. I'm just talking out loud because the rabbit hole goes down deep but I'm just trying to see how far we went down this time.

There is a chance your BS gets pulled up!!

Does it matter? If so, why?

Originally Posted by slim

Win or get fired. Quick, how many minorities did he hire during his tenure?

You're assuming the mind of someone who might be a bigot is logical. You're assuming both implicit and explicit biases aren't potentially in play. I don't understand it; we can find lawsuits of employers who literally don't hire/promote people on the basis of race. That's not a controversial statement. Why would a football coach be above that? How many minorities did he alienate with his words? And how many did he potentially not hire/promote?

I'm not saying he did or didn't do it. What I'm saying is it's a fair question to ask given his track record of comments. On its face, it's a fair question.

Originally Posted by slim

Win or get fired. Quick, how many minorities did he hire during his tenure?

For the record, I don't think he made any racially motivated hiring decisions. But I do think it's entirely possible he lost the respect of his locker room after all this stuff started coming out. Not saying I know that for a fact, but it's entirely possible that kind of friction could disrupt the team to the point where keeping him as coach would be bad from a strictly football perspective. And it's not exactly like he won a ton his first 3 years there anyway, so I can see that making this decision easier as well.

As often happens with players, you can be as big a distraction as you want as long as your value to the team outweighs it. Once that balance flips, you're gone.

Originally Posted by King87

You're assuming the mind of someone who might be a bigot is logical. You're assuming both implicit and explicit biases aren't potentially in play. I don't understand it; we can find lawsuits of employers who literally don't hire/promote people on the basis of race. That's not a controversial statement. Why would a football coach be above that? How many minorities did he alienate with his words? And how many did he potentially not hire/promote?

I'm not saying he did or didn't do it. What I'm saying is it's a fair question to ask given his track record of comments. On its face, it's a fair question.

Asking the question and jumping to conclusions are not the same thing.

Do you think your future as an attorney should be judged on your worst moments?

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

For the record, I don't think he made any racially motivated hiring decisions. But I do think it's entirely possible he lost the respect of his locker room after all this stuff started coming out. Not saying I know that for a fact, but it's entirely possible that kind of friction could disrupt the team to the point where keeping him as coach would be bad from a strictly football perspective. And it's not exactly like he won a ton his first 3 years there anyway, so I can see that making this decision easier as well.

As often happens with players, you can be as big a distraction as you want as long as your value to the team outweighs it. Once that balance flips, you're gone.

This is the first fair point I’ve read in this thread. Well done!!

Originally Posted by slim

Asking the question and jumping to conclusions are not the same thing.

Do you think your future as an attorney should be judged on your worst moments?

More specifically, are we the sum of our worst moments or the sum of all our moments?

Originally Posted by Mozzafiato

I’m not so sure he’s playing!

An original thought without a link to Twitter!

Well done!!

Originally Posted by slim

This is the first fair point I’ve read in this thread. Well done!!

Take enough shots eventually one goes in!

Originally Posted by slim

Agree. Social media has ruined us.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the Declaration of Independence had been rolled out on Twitter?

You know the thing!!!

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

Thanks for reminding me why I left P&R, childish bullshit like this. Never change buddy!

This offensive and contains multiple micro aggressions.

Originally Posted by Tned

Said another way, the PC police, aka NFL, kept leaking emails until the public outcry caused such an action. Multiple in the know NFL reporters stated that was the NFL's plan in dealing with this.

P.S. Kudos for the creative writing skills in continuously adapting your narrative each time the things you state as fact are disproven as "fact."

That's how you get away with never admitting you're flat out wrong!

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

Take enough shots eventually one goes in!

I keep hoping!!

#someday

Originally Posted by slim

Asking the question and jumping to conclusions are not the same thing.

Do you think your future as an attorney should be judged on your worst moments?

Originally Posted by slim

This is the first fair point I’ve read in this thread. Well done!!

How can you say I jumped to conclusions when I literally said I didn't want him fired for the slurs and don't think he should be banned from coaching?

If I tell you I'm asking the question then I'm asking the question. And if Gruden doesn't want that question asked the onus is on him to either be a better person or not send emails like that, like a big silly goof.

There have been plenty of fair points made. And not just 'on my side of things'.

If someone wanted to pull past comments I made and inspect them, how could I cry foul? Prosecutors -which is what I was, not sure if you were around for that- wield tremendous power and often have enormous discretion. Who you have in that role matters. You can justify doing so many things in that role that a person could very well be a bad person and be able to plausibly justify their decisions. I said some awful things as a young man. And some people might think the nexus between 33 year old King and late-teen-early-20's-king is close enough. I don't use the f slur anymore. I don't say 'retarded' anymore. I don't think edgy jokes about race and the like are usually funny, albeit I leave room for the artists/comedians to try their hand with them. But ten years ago wasn't that long ago, either. So yeah, I'd like to think that I've changed enough to be a better man. And Gruden can change.

But let's also be fair here, Gruden was a grown ass man making comments that he felt entirely safe with because he never thought they'd see the light of day. That was a side of Gruden, on the record, for seven years or so. I believe, as Abe pointed out, in grace. I'm a bisexual man; I don't hold his slurs against folks like me against him because in the past decade we've seen a radical transformation towards the LGBTQ community. And I've always remembered that when thinking about how people act. Because that's the best side of people. Granted, there are those in my community who don't forgive that. And I can't tell them they're wrong. My dad didn't hold those who bashed him for being Arabic to a grudge, but he didn't think people who were called racist slurs had to offer grace, either.

tl;dr - Gruden is not a victim, his views and jokes are blatantly wrong and offensive, regardless if someone wants to hand wave away racism, and the cheerleader shit is the most concerning, Slim is my homie.