Thread: Pats release Cam Newton

Are we really back to the but-but-but-but-Allen-and-Lock-are-comparable-to-one-another thing again?

Because that comparison and scenario has been murdered time and time again.

Originally Posted by King87

Are we really back to the but-but-but-but-Allen-and-Lock-are-comparable-to-one-another thing again?

Because that comparison and scenario has been murdered time and time again.

Not to my satisfaction. :|

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Not to my satisfaction. :|

I respect that, though. Because if you have fun rehashing stuff, it's a message board so message the board, fam.

Originally Posted by King87

I respect that, though. Because if you have fun rehashing stuff, it's a message board so message the board, fam.

Yeah, idk really. For me you can't have a good discussion about it since the Drew Lock aspect is so loaded and emotional right now.

QB development is like planting a seed in a garden. You need to water it, not transplant it a bunch, heap some shit on it but know that's ok, it might be the food it needs to grow big and strong, and so on. Above all, be patient.

For me, Allen had necessary measures for proper QB development, Drew did not.

You can argue the differences of the individuals and be accurate in pointing out the differences--accurate in explaining how Allen is NFL capable and Drew is not. Ok, fine.

For me the discussion is useful in pointing out how the Broncos are failing at QB development.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Yeah, idk really. For me you can't have a good discussion about it since the Drew Lock aspect is so loaded and emotional right now.

QB development is like planting a seed in a garden. You need to water it, not transplant it a bunch, heap some shit on it but know that's ok, it might be the food it needs to grow big and strong, and so on. Above all, be patient.

For me, Allen had necessary measures for proper QB development, Drew did not.

You can argue the differences of the individuals and be accurate in pointing out the differences--accurate in explaining how Allen is NFL capable and Drew is not. Ok, fine.

For me the discussion is useful in pointing out how the Broncos are failing at QB development.

I think you can if the emotional aspect of it is acknowledged by everyone -i.e. a free-for-all with the understanding that we're all going ham- or just filtered as best you can. But I'm an optimist about messaging because it comes down to putting forth your expectations. If you do that, a lot of problems are solved.

I think QB development is weird. Take Paxton Lynch - at one point it felt bad that he wasn't being developed. Then we, after the fact, find out he was lazy and Denver knew he was lazy. You're then (the royal you) questioning why he was even drafted. On the other hand, a guy like Allen needed more time. BUt, his case is rare. At least in this era where QB's develop faster than ever. I think Drew's issues are fixable, but probably in situations where he was never going to be. You think Reid drafts him? Almost certainly not. But a team like Denver just hoping that the high ceiling guy hits, on a second, well...gambling.

I was always the proponent of stop hiring defensive head coaches unless their Gods in this era. That opinion was not always well liked. I'm also in the 'hire a guy who has fluid thoughts and ideas and willing to adapt the scheme to talent', which usually (even if people are loathe to admit it) means hiring a young guy. That opinion was hated. These opinions came out after I thought Denver should rebuild immediately post SB win if they weren't going to retain more players/sign someone like Calais Campbell. That opinion was REALLY hated.

This isn't to say 'lol I was right' so much as it's just rough. Because even during those times reasonable arguments against my opinion could be made. I don't think Drew Lock is worth investing in anymore. Because at a certain point how could someone worth it be as bad as he was, covid or not, and not be able to fend off TBW? Talent has to translate. And maybe if Denver had a better rebuild, sooner, hired offensive guys, who aren't married to their scheme unless their scheme can make use of just about any talent (Hi McVay, you absolute sex-daddy) you'd have a better shot with a guy like Lock. But I'd still say the odds are against him.

And I should be styled on. Because I was probably his loudest or second loudest proponent on draft day. I feel foolish now.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Yeah, idk really. For me you can't have a good discussion about it since the Drew Lock aspect is so loaded and emotional right now.

QB development is like planting a seed in a garden. You need to water it, not transplant it a bunch, heap some shit on it but know that's ok, it might be the food it needs to grow big and strong, and so on. Above all, be patient.

For me, Allen had necessary measures for proper QB development, Drew did not.

You can argue the differences of the individuals and be accurate in pointing out the differences--accurate in explaining how Allen is NFL capable and Drew is not. Ok, fine.

For me the discussion is useful in pointing out how the Broncos are failing at QB development.

But is Denver really failing at it? I mean really?

Lets look at the first round QB's that Denver has drafted in the last couple of decades:

Jay Cutler: The highest pick of the bunch and probably the best in terms of true potential. I felt that Jay was coming along nicely aside from his sparring with Rivers. But then McDaniels happened and it went all downhill from there.


Tim Tebow: Great athlete but i think anyone with a brain knows he was a reach at 25.

Paxton Lynch: Another reach on Denver's part and was actually more of a project than Tebow was. Neither should have been drafted in the first round and neither were going to be starter material long term.

The bottom line here is that unlike the Bills, Browns, etc Denver really hasnt had the luxury to draft a QB in the top 5, etc to really determine if they had a quality QB to even develop.

Lock is a 2nd round project that (in my opinion) even if he had been taken by Buffalo would have been benched or released after 2 years. Drew doesnt possess the things that Allen does and it shows.

In my opinion until Denver actually gets a chance to draft a better prospect rather than the garbage bin K-mart specials it will always look like we dont develop QB's. But its because we have never had the real opportunity to draft high because of our success as an organization. Maybe now that Denver is not playing with the big boys in terms of winning we will get a chance to actually get a better and higher prospect who actually deserves to be drafted where they are.

Originally Posted by Northman

But is Denver really failing at it? I mean really?

Lets look at the first round QB's that Denver has drafted in the last couple of decades:

Jay Cutler: The highest pick of the bunch and probably the best in terms of true potential. I felt that Jay was coming along nicely aside from his sparring with Rivers. But then McDaniels happened and it went all downhill from there.


Tim Tebow: Great athlete but i think anyone with a brain knows he was a reach at 25.

Paxton Lynch: Another reach on Denver's part and was actually more of a project than Tebow was. Neither should have been drafted in the first round and neither were going to be starter material long term.

The bottom line here is that unlike the Bills, Browns, etc Denver really hasnt had the luxury to draft a QB in the top 5, etc to really determine if they had a quality QB to even develop.

Lock is a 2nd round project that (in my opinion) even if he had been taken by Buffalo would have been benched or released after 2 years. Drew doesnt possess the things that Allen does and it shows.

In my opinion until Denver actually gets a chance to draft a better prospect rather than the garbage bin K-mart specials it will always look like we dont develop QB's. But its because we have never had the real opportunity to draft high because of our success as an organization. Maybe now that Denver is not playing with the big boys in terms of winning we will get a chance to actually get a better and higher prospect who actually deserves to be drafted where they are.

Broncos passed on Josh Allen, Russell Wilson, etc. There were opportunities to draft QBs.

Talent identification aside, Broncos have only taken a deliberate and methodical approach to the development of one QB: Brock Osweiler. The rest of the QBs have been thrown into 'QB competitions' and other fiduciary bullshit that looks good for covering your ass but sucks at riding a seasoned warhorse into combat.

So I guess, if it helps, what I mean is the Broncos have failed at QB development, yes--and also in finding a QB capable of developing. The two-fecta.

As far as "Lock <> Allen, ipse dixit, it shows" yeah maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. No one has actually gotten into the weeds on that one that I've seen. My gut is that Allen is a genuine stud with a mind to match, but again, idk.

Trevor won out and then kept his job for a second season/until he lost it by being dookie. Does that count or qualify in the middle? I'm not trying to debate, it's just a question I have. Sorry if I am an obtuse goose.

Originally Posted by King87

Trevor won out and then kept his job for a second season/until he lost it by being dookie. Does that count or qualify in the middle? I'm not trying to debate, it's just a question I have. Sorry if I am an obtuse goose.

Trevor's overcarriage (not to be confused with his undercarriage) was thrashed and he was never the same afterwards. See: Pennington, Chadwick. Trev didn't have Penningsworth's initial arm velocity though.

Trevor had a B- arm (or C-, whatever, it wasn't Randy Johnson Mahomes that's for damned sure, but I clocked the damned thing man, and it was *functional*, anyways...).

Trev had a meh arm.

If he had B+ or A- mental game, well, he coulda been ok, a solid backup QB that if you had to start games with him, you could hope to Dilfer your way to glory. Almost exactly how I see TBW now, more or less. TBW is braver.

His problem was PTSD and physique, no shit. He was scared af in the pocket, took some legit thrashings, felt footsteps, wasn't NFL thicc. Didn't have good pocket skills, never found pocket 'flow' like a Drew Brees. Can't be a good QB when you scared all the time unless you are lightning quick on the balls of your feet, always one step ahead.

How is Mac Jones being called a franchise qb at this point? Because Pats? Hasn't thrown a single real pass yet.

Originally Posted by King87

Trevor won out and then kept his job for a second season/until he lost it by being dookie. Does that count or qualify in the middle? I'm not trying to debate, it's just a question I have. Sorry if I am an obtuse goose.

As far as QB development goes. Hm.

The roster was Trev, Lynch, Oz, Sloter. VJ's first season iirc.

lmao, what a dumpster fire in hindsight. Trevor had no future at that point and was still so much better than those other options. Their best bet was putting all the money on double-ought (Sloter).

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

As far as QB development goes. Hm.

The roster was Trev, Lynch, Oz, Sloter. VJ's first season iirc.

lmao, what a dumpster fire in hindsight. Trevor had no future at that point and was still so much better than those other options. Their best bet was putting all the money on double-ought (Sloter).

Sloterhouse!

Originally Posted by King87

Sloterhouse!

He would have made our August an electric month!

Chad Kelly was Ride or Die. he would have saved the broncos.

Originally Posted by ShaneFalco

Chad Kelly was Ride or Die. he would have saved the broncos.

He was that.

He had to save himself though, first.