Thread: MLB players caught using foreign substances on balls to be ejected, suspended for 10 games

Hot take: baseball would be more exciting if everybody openly cheated

Originally Posted by aberdien

Hot take: baseball would be more exciting if everybody openly cheated

No different than any other sport. Big difference between other sports and baseball is that other sports have penalties assessed during the game. No real penalties in baseball except the balk.

Originally Posted by OrangeHoof

The Astros didn't steal a World Series. That's outright fiction.

Yes, sign-stealing was done during the 2017 season. That's not in dispute. But it's been pointed out that the Astros didn't use the system deep into the postseason because of all the extra MLB security hanging around the clubhouses and dugouts which would have noticed them cheating if they'd tried it.

The Dodgers lost because the Astros found Yu Darvish was tipping his pitches (https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/12/12/do...-series-astros) and Darvish admitted this after the series when he was shown the videotape of it. How he set the ball in his glove before throwing was the tip. That's how Games 3 and 7 were lost. Also, the Dodgers lost Games 2 and 7 on their home turf where the Houston video system could not have been in place.


It should be noted that the 2017 Astros were a better road team (53-28) than home team (48-33) and scored more runs on the road (501) than at home (395) so the whole trashcan banging system was actually a failure which is why they stopped using it.

As Casey Stengel says, "you can look 'em up".

The Manfred report specifies that the Astros used their cheating system throughout the postseason of 2017 - full stop.

No qualifier, no addendum, nothing, just a full-stop indictment. Moreover, the tidbit with Altuve hitting that spectacular homer and then doing his best to stop his teammates from celebrating too hard and removing his shirt is pretty obvious regarding the buzzer controversy as well.

So your first claim about deep into the postseason is at best dubious, considering that it's on the record that: pitchers noticed that the Astros would especially hone in on off-speed pitches. In tandem with the fact that pitch that went yard, from Chapman, was an offspeed pitch, you'd have to be doing mental gymnastics to try to contort your way around this. You can try, but please be aware that no one who isn't an Astros fan is going to give that the time of day.

Your next about Darvish might be true, but that's a distractor - one can gain an advantage in a manner deemed above board in sports culture while also gaining another advantage in a more nefarious way- from the point, and is a red herring fallacy. You would have to be able to disprove the notion that you cheated. The onus falls upon the cheaters to do so, because there's a far presumption that when you cheated in the postseason, you'll continue to do so; it's why no one buys that you didn't cheat in the World Series, including the players, fans, managers, and media en masse.

The last bit of your argument is prima facie valid, but doesn't necessarily mean what you purport it to mean: teams in sports sometimes are better on the road than at home, there are obvious examples and reasons, that are obvious. You might have faced better pitchers more often during one particular split; your team might have tried harder on the road for any number of psychological reasons (including partying more at home, feeling comfortable with a normal advantage being home), or it could just be variance, etc.

However, there's a final nail in the coffin: you claim that the Astros stopped cheating with their system. That it was a failure. If it was a failure, if it didn't help, if it bore no fruit, then tell me why, on the record, the Astros didn't just continue to update their system (this is widely documented) throughout twenty-seventeen, but continued to do so in 2018?

The answer is pretty obvious, it was fruitful. This only bolsters my assertion that they were cheating for a reason and that the assertion of 'well we were better on the road' doesn't equate into 'it had no effect and meant nothing' otherwise the Astros, who were able to design a masterful cheating system that most of the players were in on were also dumb enough to gamble everything on a cheating system that had no payoff.

There's a reason why the Astros are so hated, why the organization is no longer respected, and why no one respect that World Series trophy, and why the rest of the players despise the Astros: everyone is aware of what you did, and it was a massive controversy when the Commissioner didn't have the stones to put an * on that title, or to strip it away.

It is a hollow championship devoid of merit, and it will never mean anything to the world at large.

That hurts. All of it. No matter the truth. It hurts.

The Dodgers had an employee who was caught setting up cameras at Minute Maid Park wearing an MLB Polo Shirt, when he should have been wearing a Dodgers Polo, during the 2017 World Series.

— Ryan M. Spaeder (@theaceofspaeder) June 16, 2021

The Yankees had cameras in left, center, and right, all pointing at the pitcher's glove, rather than the catcher, to pick up his grip.

Aaron Judge 2017-18 home - .312/.440/.725
Aaron Judge 2017-18 road - .256/.404/.531

— Ryan M. Spaeder (@theaceofspaeder) June 16, 2021

https://sportstalk790.iheart.com/fea...aling-in-2017/

Originally Posted by King87

The Manfred report specifies that the Astros used their cheating system throughout the postseason of 2017 - full stop.

No qualifier, no addendum, nothing, just a full-stop indictment. Moreover, the tidbit with Altuve hitting that spectacular homer and then doing his best to stop his teammates from celebrating too hard and removing his shirt is pretty obvious regarding the buzzer controversy as well.

So your first claim about deep into the postseason is at best dubious, considering that it's on the record that: pitchers noticed that the Astros would especially hone in on off-speed pitches. In tandem with the fact that pitch that went yard, from Chapman, was an offspeed pitch, you'd have to be doing mental gymnastics to try to contort your way around this. You can try, but please be aware that no one who isn't an Astros fan is going to give that the time of day.

Your next about Darvish might be true, but that's a distractor - one can gain an advantage in a manner deemed above board in sports culture while also gaining another advantage in a more nefarious way- from the point, and is a red herring fallacy. You would have to be able to disprove the notion that you cheated. The onus falls upon the cheaters to do so, because there's a far presumption that when you cheated in the postseason, you'll continue to do so; it's why no one buys that you didn't cheat in the World Series, including the players, fans, managers, and media en masse.

The last bit of your argument is prima facie valid, but doesn't necessarily mean what you purport it to mean: teams in sports sometimes are better on the road than at home, there are obvious examples and reasons, that are obvious. You might have faced better pitchers more often during one particular split; your team might have tried harder on the road for any number of psychological reasons (including partying more at home, feeling comfortable with a normal advantage being home), or it could just be variance, etc.

However, there's a final nail in the coffin: you claim that the Astros stopped cheating with their system. That it was a failure. If it was a failure, if it didn't help, if it bore no fruit, then tell me why, on the record, the Astros didn't just continue to update their system (this is widely documented) throughout twenty-seventeen, but continued to do so in 2018?

The answer is pretty obvious, it was fruitful. This only bolsters my assertion that they were cheating for a reason and that the assertion of 'well we were better on the road' doesn't equate into 'it had no effect and meant nothing' otherwise the Astros, who were able to design a masterful cheating system that most of the players were in on were also dumb enough to gamble everything on a cheating system that had no payoff.

There's a reason why the Astros are so hated, why the organization is no longer respected, and why no one respect that World Series trophy, and why the rest of the players despise the Astros: everyone is aware of what you did, and it was a massive controversy when the Commissioner didn't have the stones to put an * on that title, or to strip it away.

It is a hollow championship devoid of merit, and it will never mean anything to the world at large.

So what you are saying is the Astros are the New England Patriots of baseball.

Originally Posted by Northman

So what you are saying is the Astros are the New England Patriots of baseball.

See above.

Originally Posted by SR

See above.

Does it count though if you are not winning championships?

Originally Posted by Northman

Does it count though if you are not winning championships?

Well, Boston did some shit when they won the World Series after the Astros too. Their coach, Alex Cora, was suspended for a year. Some shit came out a couple days ago about the Royals during their World Series year in 2015. Also the shit about the Dodgers last year and the Yankees. So the Astros stuff is basically the tip of the spear, but there's a whole spear below it.

Originally Posted by SR

Well, Boston did some shit when they won the World Series after the Astros too. Their coach, Alex Cora, was suspended for a year. Some shit came out a couple days ago about the Royals during their World Series year in 2015. Also the shit about the Dodgers last year and the Yankees. So the Astros stuff is basically the tip of the spear, but there's a whole spear below it.

It's obvious to me that MLB wants to make the Astros the focus of the crime and pretend nobody else was involved. They totally whitewashed the 2018 Red Sox. You mean to tell me that the video room guy for the Sox was decoding signals but NOT passing them to the team's players and management? That's what MLB wants you to believe. MLB is fighting like hell to keep a letter sealed that was sent to the Yankees about sign-stealing which wound up in the courts. Why, if they were trying to be transparent? Carlos Beltran came to Houston in the offseason before 2017 bragging that the Astros were way behind in the art of sign-stealing. He'd spent the previous year with the Yankees. In a recent podcast, former Astro Erik Kratz said that, as a Brewer, he turned in the Astros *and two other teams* that he knew were stealing signals. But he then refused to say what two other teams.

Just like the pitching infractions, sign-stealing is a known issue dating all the way back to the Fifties. If they just fitted pitchers and catchers with wireless signals like the NFL uses, there would be no point to any of this. Only baseball prefers to live like it's the 1880s instead of the 2020s.

Originally Posted by King87

The Manfred report specifies that the Astros used their cheating system throughout the postseason of 2017 - full stop.

Correct. That's what he said. Although he also claims the sign-stealing had "no effect" on any particular game. Believe Manfred at your peril.

Moreover, the tidbit with Altuve hitting that spectacular homer and then doing his best to stop his teammates from celebrating too hard and removing his shirt is pretty obvious regarding the buzzer controversy as well.

That's laughable, particularly after Chapman has been hit like that 2-3 times a year ever since, even in the 2020 ALDS when Mike Brosseau of Tampa Bay took Chapman deep in the decisive Game 5. He's already allowed two homers this year and it's not half over. Were they cheating too?

So your first claim about deep into the postseason is at best dubious, considering that it's on the record that: pitchers noticed that the Astros would especially hone in on off-speed pitches. In tandem with the fact that pitch that went yard, from Chapman, was an offspeed pitch, you'd have to be doing mental gymnastics to try to contort your way around this. You can try, but please be aware that no one who isn't an Astros fan is going to give that the time of day.

See above.

Your next about Darvish might be true,

Thank you - because it is.

However, there's a final nail in the coffin: you claim that the Astros stopped cheating with their system. That it was a failure. If it was a failure, if it didn't help, if it bore no fruit, then tell me why, on the record, the Astros didn't just continue to update their system (this is widely documented) throughout twenty-seventeen, but continued to do so in 2018?

It was a failure, by any independent statistical measure. While not widely communicated, I think GM Luhnow was behind a wide number of means to get an edge - some legal, some not, - many of them involving data analysis. If the Astros were still trying to tweak the video system, it was because those were the orders from above. I'll leave you with a quote from Carlos Correa in Spring, 2020:

Correa admitted to Rosenthal, “Everything that happened that year was wrong. When (Bellinger) talks about that we cheated for three years, he either doesn’t know how to read, is really bad at reading comprehension, or is just not informed at all... 2018 nothing happened. 2019 nothing happened. The problem I have is when players go out there, and they don’t know the facts.”

“Jose Altuve was the guy who didn’t use the trashcan,” said Correa. "He would go inside the dugout and get mad. And say ‘I don’t want this, I can’t hit like this, don’t do this to me.’ Altuve played clean the whole season.” He also defended Altuve’s road record. “When you look at Altuve’s numbers on the road, he hit 400.” Correa also added Josh Reddick, Tony Kemp, and Altuve were the three players who didn’t want to steal signs. "When you disrespect Altuve’s name, it doesn’t sit well with me. He earned that MVP.”


The facts remain - Darvish was tipping pitches which was why the Dodgers lost games 3 & 7. The Dodgers lost Games 2 & 7 at home when the Astros could not use the video system. Nobody can steal from you what you never earned.

Except he also said he heavily contemplated stripping the title from the Astros, so you tell me how that sounds

So Chapman gets a homer hit off of him, Altuve doesn't want his teammates to mess with his shirt, and there's literal photo evidence of a suspicious bulge on the guy's body, on a team that has cheated throughout the majority of that season, and we're supposed to conclude that it was nothing? Please, that's absurd

You also can't highlight the Darvish part and then ignore the rest of that analysis, but hey I guess that shouldn't surprise me

It was a failure, but they did it most of that season, they did it that postseason, they did it the following season, but there's nothing there? So your boys were just bored, and that's why almost the entire player base was in on it? I guess you must have missed when your own manager admitted it's more than fair to question how legitimate that title is? You also, (again, I might add) ignore the explanations for why a team might perform better on one split than on the other

Hey buddy, no one believes anything the Astro players have to say about who did what, because not only did the findings show that almost the entire team was in on it, the Astros have all the reason in the world to try to reverse engineer the results from that season

So you cheated, you mastered the cheating, you cheated in the playoffs, and then you started to cheat the next year, but sure it had no effect and Altuve was on the up-and-up the whole time?

Your team was and is embroiled in the biggest cheating scandal since the era of Shoeless Joe, but you demand we ignore not just the smoke, but the fire

No, Altuve didn't earn that MVP, the Astros didn't earn their playoff bid, nor did they earn their WS birth, or that title, because they cheated rampantly throughout all of it

And guess what pal, once you have the signals, you have them - that's why a lot of teams who played against you changed their signals constantly, but I guess the onus is on the homeowner to not get robbed, nevermind the robber

But sure, everyone but the cheaters are wrong, and the cheaters and their words should be the ones that get the most weight

Enjoy a title that is universally recognized as meaningless, and especially enjoy the hollow moments of celebrating

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ep-their-title

Absolutely. An MLB investigation determined that the 2017 Astros relied on videotape to help capture opponents’ signals, including those made by the Dodgers during the World Series. While stealing signs that pitchers and catchers use to determine what pitches they throw is part of the game, the rules stipulate that it’s illegal to rely on electronic devices to do so.

They were bored! They were just killing time! It had no effect! There definitely didn't use it in the World Series so they could get an advantage!

Originally Posted by SR

https://sportstalk790.iheart.com/fea...aling-in-2017/

This guy deleted all of this, recanted, apologized and said he could not verify the information, FYI.

Originally Posted by SR

https://sportstalk790.iheart.com/fea...aling-in-2017/

This is chicancery is inaccurate!

Don't try to step in and save Hoof!

He's a habitual line stepper, and he needs this discipline!