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Thread: Fumbling and RB position

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
    It's a project unlikely to fetch a reward worth the time spent.
    So you concede Gordon is the rb we need?
    The Plan at the moment:

    Draft: Trade a 3rd and 6th this year to a team to move up and get a 2nd next year (this will happen).

    Players I want:
    Jake Ferguson (Jake Butt) or Jelani Woods or Jeremy Ruckert or Cade Otten (owen daniels) at TE- All 4th rd or later.
    Troy Anderson LB 3rd/4th rd (yay Timmy!)
    Neil Farrell, JR DL- run stuffer- bye purcell

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by underrated29 View Post
    So you concede Gordon is the rb we need?
    We don't need own goals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting
    "You know cos I just lost my parents--both my parents died in the same year...to this day, people come up to me and say 'my dad died and that album really meant a lot to me,' which is very nourishing {pats heart} for a songwriter to hear that your songs have a utility beyond just their own solace, that it actually helps other people."

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
    We don't need own goals.
    Lindsay contributed what 12 points net?
    Gordon contributed what 54 points net?


    We don't need stagnant. Dionte Spencer contributed 1 td less than Lindsay. Scoring points wins games. We are not the '85 bears. 54 is almost 5x more net points scored. Maybe we should bring Driscoll in to play qb again? He didn't score many own goals. He also didn't score points for us, and we lost every game he played in.
    The Plan at the moment:

    Draft: Trade a 3rd and 6th this year to a team to move up and get a 2nd next year (this will happen).

    Players I want:
    Jake Ferguson (Jake Butt) or Jelani Woods or Jeremy Ruckert or Cade Otten (owen daniels) at TE- All 4th rd or later.
    Troy Anderson LB 3rd/4th rd (yay Timmy!)
    Neil Farrell, JR DL- run stuffer- bye purcell

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  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by underrated29 View Post
    Lindsay contributed what 12 points net?
    Gordon contributed what 54 points net?


    We don't need stagnant. Dionte Spencer contributed 1 td less than Lindsay. Scoring points wins games. We are not the '85 bears. 54 is almost 5x more net points scored. Maybe we should bring Driscoll in to play qb again? He didn't score many own goals. He also didn't score points for us, and we lost every game he played in.
    The new oc misused him that’s what he was trying to tell us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by underrated29 View Post
    Lindsay contributed what 12 points net?
    Gordon contributed what 54 points net?


    We don't need stagnant. Dionte Spencer contributed 1 td less than Lindsay. Scoring points wins games. We are not the '85 bears. 54 is almost 5x more net points scored. Maybe we should bring Driscoll in to play qb again? He didn't score many own goals. He also didn't score points for us, and we lost every game he played in.
    This seems like an overly simplistic way of looking at it. I'm more curious how Gordon did from more of a WAR type standpoint. How many of his TDs could have been scored by a replacement level player if given the same chances? He tended to get all the goal line carries, which will boost your TD numbers. Was he making great plays on those goal line carries, or were they well designed/blocked plays in which whatever RB was given the carry would have scored.

    Just saying "well he scored TDs and scoring is good" isn't really a convincing argument to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoWave View Post
    This seems like an overly simplistic way of looking at it. I'm more curious how Gordon did from more of a WAR type standpoint. How many of his TDs could have been scored by a replacement level player if given the same chances? He tended to get all the goal line carries, which will boost your TD numbers. Was he making great plays on those goal line carries, or were they well designed/blocked plays in which whatever RB was given the carry would have scored.

    Just saying "well he scored TDs and scoring is good" isn't really a convincing argument to me.
    Lindsey had goal line carries. He didn't score on a single one of them. Not once. I dont think that makes him replacement level. It also shuts down that argument. Same coukd be said for short yardage...Lindsey sucked ass. Gordon didn't.

    One vastly contributed to the team in every single way. The other vastly did not.


    Literally anyone saying otherwise is lying to themselves or is being the ex girlfriend when you find someone new. Butt hurt that someone came in and did lindseys jobs better. If they're actually objective there is no argument. None.
    The Plan at the moment:

    Draft: Trade a 3rd and 6th this year to a team to move up and get a 2nd next year (this will happen).

    Players I want:
    Jake Ferguson (Jake Butt) or Jelani Woods or Jeremy Ruckert or Cade Otten (owen daniels) at TE- All 4th rd or later.
    Troy Anderson LB 3rd/4th rd (yay Timmy!)
    Neil Farrell, JR DL- run stuffer- bye purcell

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  11. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by underrated29 View Post
    Lindsey had goal line carries. He didn't score on a single one of them. Not once. I dont think that makes him replacement level. It also shuts down that argument. Same coukd be said for short yardage...Lindsey sucked ass. Gordon didn't.

    One vastly contributed to the team in every single way. The other vastly did not.


    Literally anyone saying otherwise is lying to themselves or is being the ex girlfriend when you find someone new. Butt hurt that someone came in and did lindseys jobs better. If they're actually objective there is no argument. None.
    In comparison to Lindsay you might be right, but in terms of justifying his salary over a cheaper RB we could possibly obtain, I'm not sure his TD numbers fully convince me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoWave View Post
    In comparison to Lindsay you might be right, but in terms of justifying his salary over a cheaper RB we could possibly obtain, I'm not sure his TD numbers fully convince me.
    Ahhhh but that's not the topic. And that is what people keep trying to do. Move the goalposts back. Move them back again until they can find something that made Lindsey better. Keep moving the goal posts you know.


    It went from. Lindsey is better. To not really. To no way. To not even close to. Gordon was simply better in every single aspect. To well Gordon fumbles more. But still w fumbles Gordon is 2x better (even more) to then salary and everything else.

    There is no argument. Gordon is the bar none better player.
    The Plan at the moment:

    Draft: Trade a 3rd and 6th this year to a team to move up and get a 2nd next year (this will happen).

    Players I want:
    Jake Ferguson (Jake Butt) or Jelani Woods or Jeremy Ruckert or Cade Otten (owen daniels) at TE- All 4th rd or later.
    Troy Anderson LB 3rd/4th rd (yay Timmy!)
    Neil Farrell, JR DL- run stuffer- bye purcell

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    I think the average football fan underestimates just how small of a sample the 16 game regular season is - how vital every possession is - and how little room for error there is in the NFL.

    Thus I'm with you that you can't simply shrug your shoulders at Melvin Gordon's ball control problems, because his fumbles are so catastrophic, it basically invalidates every other thing he does well...

    It's why I was so down on Bolles for so long - you can't just overlook his holding no matter how many people he's mauling in the run game. Jeudy can't get credit for all of his tremendous route running if he doesn't catch the damn ball. Everything matters - it all adds up to a winning or losing organization.

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    I bet there are MIT analysts that have determined that Dickerson's legendary 2105 yard season was one of the all time worst seasons by a running back...14 fumbles...

    Ok, I'm going to try something if I can scrape the data easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting
    "You know cos I just lost my parents--both my parents died in the same year...to this day, people come up to me and say 'my dad died and that album really meant a lot to me,' which is very nourishing {pats heart} for a songwriter to hear that your songs have a utility beyond just their own solace, that it actually helps other people."

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    Quote Originally Posted by underrated29 View Post
    Ahhhh but that's not the topic. And that is what people keep trying to do. Move the goalposts back. Move them back again until they can find something that made Lindsey better. Keep moving the goal posts you know.


    It went from. Lindsey is better. To not really. To no way. To not even close to. Gordon was simply better in every single aspect. To well Gordon fumbles more. But still w fumbles Gordon is 2x better (even more) to then salary and everything else.

    There is no argument. Gordon is the bar none better player.
    People were saying the day we signed Gordon that he was overpaid and not worth that money, so I'm not sure you can say that's goalpost moving.

    As to fumbles vs TDs, I'm still just not buying that one makes up for the other. A TD takes a lot of people doing their job right to occur. The coach has to call the right play, the QB has to make the right pre-snap reads, the line has to block, and if it's a long TD you usually need good blocking downfield by the WRs or TEs. The run is only a part of that equation.

    A fumble, on the other hand, is completely the fault of the guy who fumbled. Unless it was a botched handoff, it's no one else's fault. You just can't have a guy fumble at the rate he does and just shrug it off because touchdowns.

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    This didn't help either!


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    It's not free to scrape the data I need, so my argument will be superficial and piecemeal.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sting
    "You know cos I just lost my parents--both my parents died in the same year...to this day, people come up to me and say 'my dad died and that album really meant a lot to me,' which is very nourishing {pats heart} for a songwriter to hear that your songs have a utility beyond just their own solace, that it actually helps other people."

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    It is clear that limiting turnovers is critical to winning. Teams that lose fumbles or throw picks more than their opponent lose about 80% of their games.

    Unfortunately, being in the process of losing a contest also leads to more turnovers (late game interceptions), so this evidence isn't as strong as I'd like. But it's still something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting
    "You know cos I just lost my parents--both my parents died in the same year...to this day, people come up to me and say 'my dad died and that album really meant a lot to me,' which is very nourishing {pats heart} for a songwriter to hear that your songs have a utility beyond just their own solace, that it actually helps other people."

  20. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    I think the average football fan underestimates just how small of a sample the 16 game regular season is - how vital every possession is - and how little room for error there is in the NFL.

    Thus I'm with you that you can't simply shrug your shoulders at Melvin Gordon's ball control problems, because his fumbles are so catastrophic, it basically invalidates every other thing he does well...

    It's why I was so down on Bolles for so long - you can't just overlook his holding no matter how many people he's mauling in the run game. Jeudy can't get credit for all of his tremendous route running if he doesn't catch the damn ball. Everything matters - it all adds up to a winning or losing organization.


    Buff, I love you, but what a load of crap!


    It Basically does not. It basically does nothing. You are not dumb enough to say 4 fumbles 100% completely wipes out 10+ tds. Basically wipes out game winning drives and points. Basically wipes out amazing 1 handed catch on 4th down- to get the first so we can go win the game.




    All of you arguments are Basically Crap. Correction, all of your arguments are crap.


    Basically Gordon is the best thing to happen to all of you since your mother giving you birth. Now go build him a shrine!!
    The Plan at the moment:

    Draft: Trade a 3rd and 6th this year to a team to move up and get a 2nd next year (this will happen).

    Players I want:
    Jake Ferguson (Jake Butt) or Jelani Woods or Jeremy Ruckert or Cade Otten (owen daniels) at TE- All 4th rd or later.
    Troy Anderson LB 3rd/4th rd (yay Timmy!)
    Neil Farrell, JR DL- run stuffer- bye purcell

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