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Thread: Serious question

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SR View Post
    Arians' ego bothers me sometimes, but I like his old school attitude and approach. I like Matt Nagy too for some reason.
    Was Frank Reich that class? Dog was right about him, he good.
    "Tuning ... into each other ... lift all higher”
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  3. #17
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    Broncos need an offensive-minded head coach. Gary Kubiak was the one who brought Broncos to Super Bowl and won SB50. Other 2 defensive minded head coach failed. (Fox and VJ) I know Fox went to SB... his coaching system failed in SB. Fangio is failing...

    Mike Shanahan is still available for coaching job. Wade Phillips is still available for the position of DC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    No the best move would have been for John to make better selections at coach.
    OK. Here's the correct answer. Obviously, we know that John's decision to hire Vance Joseph was a monumental brain fart. No one knows why he had such a Jones for VJ. Nobody else in the league could understand it. They figured maybe he knew something they didn't; that he fit their style or something.

    But about the best the rest of the NFL could do was kinda shrug. "It could work out. VJ isn't obviously disqualified."

    But, he also was not remotely to be considered "best qualified" by anybody. He was not, in short, a top tier coaching prospect.

    And nobody was surprised when he flamed out after 2 years and went back to doing what he can do well. Being a coordinator. It's called the Peter Principle.

    "The Peter Principle is a concept in management developed by Laurence J. Peter, which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "level of incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another."
    Vance, like Wade Phillips and many other coordinators are not competent head coaches.

    So, no surprise there. Next.

    Did Elway do a rigorous selection search to find the best candidate? A top tier coaching prospect? Nope!

    He already had another coaching candidate in mind.

    And once again it was a head-scratcher. A dude who seemed the epitome of middle management. Vic Fangio. He'd been around for ages but nobody ever thought he had the right stuff to be a head coach.

    He seemed destined to stagnate at the coordinator level; in a universal recognition that he had already reached the limit of his competence and to promote him any more would be risking sudden failure.

    In short exactly what we are witnessing. You can blame the injuries if you like, but other teams have injuries and somehow they aren't all 3-6. Soon to be 3-13 or 4-12.

    Special teams are an utter disaster outside of FGs. The defense is riddled by injury but did you see Kareem Jackson take the worst angle in the world on that long pass reception? I'm watching that thinking "Who de F is #22?" Oh! Kareem Jackson; that's who screwed up that play."

    Well, I'd say that the entire regime, from Elway on down, is tied to Drew Lock. If he's a bust then they need to clear out the entire organization, staring with the man who drafted him.

    Sorry if you don't agree, but that is what needs to happen. But, only if they give Drew Lock every chance to turn this around and he proves conclusively that he is not the guy; as he is doing so far.

    No other NFL GM would survive in his job 4 straight seasons like 5-11; 6-10; 7-9; 4-12. None.

    If that happened in Cleveland (as it has in the past) or New York the GM would lose his job. If that happens here, injuries or no injuries, Elway's head is the first that needs to roll. Just like everywhere else in the league. The Broncos cannot be immune to failure because "it's John Elway!"

    Results are the only things that matter. And it's been a long-ass time since that SB. That buys you 4 straight losing seasons, but not a fifth.

    They need to turn this thing around and show us something.

    Because we cannot trust John Elway to go back into the draft and select another QB. Not after his history of picking QBs since Peyton Manning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turftoad View Post
    I thinks it's to hard to judge this year with all the injuries we have.
    Listening to the announcers yesterday describe who's not playing defense for the Broncos was like a who's who of what we expected our defense to be like. We've got scrubs at practically every position in the front seven. That's going to kill a young offense that tries to win by leaning on the defense to keep it close.

    Four INTs were disappointing but Lock was under duress for most of them and it wasn't from holding the ball too long.

    Getting back to Fangio, I think VJ was clearly over his head and nothing I've seen since convinces me this was the wrong move. I don't like Fangio's game management though. It seems we're always playing from behind even in the victories and going the one half without using any timeouts against the Titans was close to inexcusable. Clearly, he knows more about coaching defense than he does running an offense - sort of a Shanahan in reverse.
    I miss the old Mile High Stadium.

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    Ya for sure Fangio was the right move and we are better off for it.

    Just simply look at talent! Our last couple drafts have been amazing. VJ drafts were dogshit. Our team has WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY more talent on it now. We have a pretty talented roster. Our defense is also head and shoulders better than it was with VJ. It is not even close. Vj could hardly get through an interview, let alone coach a game.


    To me it all comes back to QB. It always does. I do not know why so many people know this but want to cast blame on coaches, owners, GMs, etc.

    Andy reid got fired, he was nothing with KC until Mahomes. Now he is god.
    Belicheat had brady and was a god. Now he has no brady and they suck.
    The browns have had as many QBs as coaches. Its why they always suck.
    Kingsbury- got his QB. He was lucky enough to have the #1 overall pick so he is in the clear.
    Buffalo- I do not eve know who their coach is and they were nothing without Josh Allen and it took 3 years


    Who was sean peyton before brees?
    How was arians with Jameis Winston?
    How was shanny JR without Meatball at QB?

    It always starts and Always finishes with the QB. Plain and simple. QBs are hard to get and you typically need to get them top 10. The coach does not matter (too much) until you have the QB.

    Fangio imo is miles better as a coach vs VJ
     
    made you look haha

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  9. #21
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    Fangio is clearly a better coach than VJ. He's an adult who mostly knows what he's doing.

    He's not good enough, but he's an improvement. And he's pretty likable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aberdien View Post
    Fangio is clearly a better coach than VJ. He's an adult who mostly knows what he's doing.

    He's not good enough, but he's an improvement. And he's pretty likable.
    This is the equivalent of saying Lock is better than Siemien. Either way isn't good.
    "I may not be a mathematician, but I can count to a million." - Shannon Sharpe

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    The Fangio > VJ arguments (better draft picks, VJ facial expressions, warm fuzzies) are unpersuasive so far. I'm ready to score from 2d for the good guys (team Fangio) but someone has to make contact first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnificent Seven View Post
    Broncos need an offensive-minded head coach. Gary Kubiak was the one who brought Broncos to Super Bowl and won SB50. Other 2 defensive minded head coach failed. (Fox and VJ) I know Fox went to SB... his coaching system failed in SB. Fangio is failing...

    Mike Shanahan is still available for coaching job. Wade Phillips is still available for the position of DC.
    I'm not sure your logic between an offensive-minded coach and the Broncos winning Super Bowl 50 is right. The offense wasn't good that year, but the defense was generationally good and was able to shut down a very dynamic Carolina offense. John Fox, a defensive guy, had the most prolific offense in NFL history and lost the Super Bowl because another generationally good defense in Seattle's shut down the offense. Kinda backfired on ya.

    And I'll never understand fans who want Broncos retreads to come back hoping to re-live the glory days.
    "Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer" -Arnold

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    An important thing to remember too - Ed Donatell has not been with the team for two or three weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoWave View Post
    But what do I know, my opinion is just stupid and worthless!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Flores is legit, I love Arians but I’m probably alone on that.
    Love him too. I'd love to see him with this young offensive core. But he wanted to be in Tampa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
    I hate show your work test questions. I was the kid that asked the teacher if I could just put down the answer without all the tedious bean counting.

    Anyways.

    No, there is no clear improvement from Fangio. What we have now is what we would have had if VJ was still coach in terms of known results and a subjective feeling of 'hope for the future'.

    Fangio has a 10-15 record, VJ had an 11-21 record. However, this Raiders loss feels like 10 losses, so advantage VJ.

    Coaching game-management head scratchers have been a wash. Both demonstrated an uncanny knack for bewildering strategic blunders and clock management ineptitude. Push.

    Offensively, both coaches have presided over a nearly unwatchable brand of offensive football. They have had good passing defenses built around Von Miller that are formidable but cannot achieve a playoff-eligible record alone. VJ had some awful OC selections in McCoy (fired midseason) and Musgrave (meh). Fangio (and Elway?/Ellis?) tried Scangs and now Shurmur.

    However the decisions have come to be made, the musical chairs at OC set to an insane metronome speed has done nothing for developing an offensive identity.

    The defenses have been fine. The other side of the ball...

    So Fangio was able to lure Munchak to help set the concrete and develop an offensive identity. You can argue that Bolles has turned the corner, but otherwise there is nothing praiseworthy about Munchak's results. Perhaps that is a personnel issue as well.

    Hope for the future hinges around the development of potential QBOTF Lock. This would have been the same with VJ. This is the hardest part of the question--projecting what years 3 and 4 would be like with VJ.

    If we rewind to 2019, Fangio began the season 0-4 on the way to 3-8 and sniffing the #1 overall pick. It didn't look like firing VJ was an upgrade at that point. However, Fangio seems to have 'kept the locker room' in terms of being professionals who show up on Sunday and play a full 60 (ish, kinda, I guess). Then the Scangs/Lock era began with a blistering 4-1 start and the people had hope.

    How would Lock have done with Musgrave? Or would VJ have brought in Scangs? Or some other OC who would have done even better? Would VJ have fired Scangs or would the 'stay the course, steady the ship' approach resulted in Lock having a greater mastery of the same offense instead of having to master a new offense with new receivers and a new OC and curtailed offseason contact?

    I'd say advantage VJ in that dept (he'd have kept Scangs and shown a stable hand--this is kind of the hidden premise here, stability vs. turnover)...but it all comes down to how Shurmur and Lock mature in this coming season.

    I don't see enough so far in the Fangio decision that proves the hire was intelligent and productive enough to overcome the disruption from institutional turnover.

    But they both suck, so ...
    I'm not buying that you hate to show your work. I can't read all of that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Was Frank Reich that class? Dog was right about him, he good.
    Well that was the way that McDaniels screwed us a second time. Everybody said that elway liked Frank and if he had hit the open market I think he would have been a Denver bronco.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel View Post
    OK. Here's the correct answer. Obviously, we know that John's decision to hire Vance Joseph was a monumental brain fart. No one knows why he had such a Jones for VJ. Nobody else in the league could understand it. They figured maybe he knew something they didn't; that he fit their style or something.

    But about the best the rest of the NFL could do was kinda shrug. "It could work out. VJ isn't obviously disqualified."

    But, he also was not remotely to be considered "best qualified" by anybody. He was not, in short, a top tier coaching prospect.

    And nobody was surprised when he flamed out after 2 years and went back to doing what he can do well. Being a coordinator. It's called the Peter Principle.



    Vance, like Wade Phillips and many other coordinators are not competent head coaches.

    So, no surprise there. Next.

    Did Elway do a rigorous selection search to find the best candidate? A top tier coaching prospect? Nope!

    He already had another coaching candidate in mind.

    And once again it was a head-scratcher. A dude who seemed the epitome of middle management. Vic Fangio. He'd been around for ages but nobody ever thought he had the right stuff to be a head coach.

    He seemed destined to stagnate at the coordinator level; in a universal recognition that he had already reached the limit of his competence and to promote him any more would be risking sudden failure.

    In short exactly what we are witnessing. You can blame the injuries if you like, but other teams have injuries and somehow they aren't all 3-6. Soon to be 3-13 or 4-12.

    Special teams are an utter disaster outside of FGs. The defense is riddled by injury but did you see Kareem Jackson take the worst angle in the world on that long pass reception? I'm watching that thinking "Who de F is #22?" Oh! Kareem Jackson; that's who screwed up that play."

    Well, I'd say that the entire regime, from Elway on down, is tied to Drew Lock. If he's a bust then they need to clear out the entire organization, staring with the man who drafted him.

    Sorry if you don't agree, but that is what needs to happen. But, only if they give Drew Lock every chance to turn this around and he proves conclusively that he is not the guy; as he is doing so far.

    No other NFL GM would survive in his job 4 straight seasons like 5-11; 6-10; 7-9; 4-12. None.

    If that happened in Cleveland (as it has in the past) or New York the GM would lose his job. If that happens here, injuries or no injuries, Elway's head is the first that needs to roll. Just like everywhere else in the league. The Broncos cannot be immune to failure because "it's John Elway!"

    Results are the only things that matter. And it's been a long-ass time since that SB. That buys you 4 straight losing seasons, but not a fifth.

    They need to turn this thing around and show us something.

    Because we cannot trust John Elway to go back into the draft and select another QB. Not after his history of picking QBs since Peyton Manning.
    They were obsessed with him since Mike Brown kept us from signing him his defensive coordinator and I've said this over and over but Mike Brown should have gotten a ring for keeping VJ so that we could hire Wade Phillips who actually gave us our super bowl.

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  23. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeHoof View Post
    Listening to the announcers yesterday describe who's not playing defense for the Broncos was like a who's who of what we expected our defense to be like. We've got scrubs at practically every position in the front seven. That's going to kill a young offense that tries to win by leaning on the defense to keep it close.

    Four INTs were disappointing but Lock was under duress for most of them and it wasn't from holding the ball too long.

    Getting back to Fangio, I think VJ was clearly over his head and nothing I've seen since convinces me this was the wrong move. I don't like Fangio's game management though. It seems we're always playing from behind even in the victories and going the one half without using any timeouts against the Titans was close to inexcusable. Clearly, he knows more about coaching defense than he does running an offense - sort of a Shanahan in reverse.
    Not so sure that firing rich who really seemed to connect with Lock was the right move period a Young quarterback especially one who has had multiple offensive coordinators in college needs to continuity. And you expect when you have a young player to give them time to grow into the job. Listen I was extremely critical of skangarello and his play calling early in the season but it definitely got better towards the end period and at least he got Philip Lindsey the ball.

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