Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 65

Thread: Offensive identity

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Pat Bowlen
    Posts
    97,305

    Default Offensive identity

    I am confused by what they’re trying to do on offense. I think they’re confused about what they’re trying to do on offense.

    So, some thoughts on what it should be.

    1. What Elway wants the scheme to look like, and does he really want it to look like that? What does the hire of Scangarello tell us about how these two thoughts maybe oppose each other, or validate that Elway’s comments aren’t what he alluded to.

    When Kubiak was let go, or decided to leave, whichever you’re inclined to believe (I imagine the truth is in between and it was mutual), Elway made some comments about liking the schemes based in what we’ve colloquially been calling “college schemes.” I think we can assume he was speaking about Kansas City, Carolina, Los Angeles Rams, etc.

    Now, they run different schemes, but those schemes all have some college spread concepts.

    For example Andy Reid has combined West Coast concepts (his background is the Holmgren scheme) with spread concepts that were introduced to the pro game by McDaniels in New England about a decade ago. Reid’s scheme differs because it’s still essentially a West Coast scheme with the mesh and option concepts of the college spread. The threat of the quarterback running is more out of the passing side than the rushing side, though, which is a West Coast principle. Always be looking downfield even if the pocket is moving. This is similar to what McVey is doing in Los Angeles and now what Kingsbury is doing in Arizona. Kansas City’s offense is built on speed, and Reid has tailored his scheme to that speed, i.e. Hill, Hardman, Watkins, etc.

    The flip side of that is the Carolina spread. It’s built in more of a downfield passing game and a power offense. It has elements of the Coryell passing game and the old power running game of the NFC East teams. They run true option concepts in the backfield behind pulling linemen and counter action. And the play action game is looking deep to short, rather than short to deep, like Reid’s offense (West Coast).

    The question that is unanswered is: Does Elway want one of these schemes like he seemed to allude to when moving on from Kubiak? We don’t know the answer to that.

    Scangarello’s hire seemed to indicate the opposite. Yes, he has a lengthy college background. Frankly, it’s hard to know too much about the scheme he ran when he was an offensive coordinator in college because he was with lower-level teams I’m not familiar with. One would assume there was some air raid/spread involved, as most colleges have run these systems for nearly 20 years now. But, the Atlanta/San Francisco Shanahan offense is quite a bit more traditional West Coast than McVey’s or Reid’s. That leads me to believe that Elway was OK with that more traditional offense. But again, we don’t know that for sure.

    2. The player personnel.

    The team that was assembled is a power run football team. I think that’s plain and simple. They carried (including practice squad), three tailbacks, two fullbacks and four tight ends. They only kept five wide receivers (these numbers are off the top of my head, so they may be slightly off). Then they traded one of those receivers, and now really only have one healthy impact player at the position.

    The team’s best running back, Lindsay, despite being short, is a power (scheme) runner. He seems to work best when he’s behind a pulling guard or working downhill in a zone scheme. His best ability, past maybe his elusiveness, is his vision. I think he has elite vision.

    Janovich is one of the best fullbacks in the game, and they carried two fullbacks initially. That screams power run scheme.

    The offensive line is clearly a top unit in the league in the running game (DVOA confirms this) and brutally bad in pass blocking (also confirmed by DVOA).

    So...

    3. The playcalling.

    Here’s the true identity question. Why are they not running more power? Lindsay only had 13 carries yesterday. They only ran the ball 16 times yesterday. Yes, there were three and outs, and that was a big problem, but they were averaging 5 yards per carry. Run the football, it’s cold and windy.

    Is that not the scheme? If it’s not the scheme, I suppose that’s one thing. But that raises several questions, the most important being why isn’t Scangarello using his personnel to the best of its abilities? Why is he trying to run college concepts with a team that’s not built on the speed it takes to run them?

    What do they want the offensive identity of this team to be? Starting with the front office, they need to do a better job of identifying what they want the scheme to look like and catering the personnel to that scheme, or vice versa, cater the scheme to the personnel. Right now, it’s all over the place.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

  2. The Following 13 Users High Fived MOtorboat For This Post:


  3. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    A galaxy far far away
    Adopted Bronco:
    Rey
    Posts
    21,571

    Default

    You have an identity that is offensive

  4. The Following 2 Users High Fived Valar Morghulis For This Post:


  5. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Rock of Eternity
    Adopted Bronco:
    Drew Lock
    Posts
    16,031

    Default

    I really want to read all that but i can't. Maybe you should do a podcast? Serious.
    "I may not be a mathematician, but I can count to a million." - Shannon Sharpe

  6. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Pat Bowlen
    Posts
    97,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis View Post
    You have an identity that is offensive
    I don’t have time for this.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

  7. The Following User High Fived MOtorboat For This Post:


  8. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Taysom Hill
    Posts
    40,863

    Default

    Elway's bias is towards the offenses he won Super Bowls in - the Mike Shanahan-style, west-coast, wide zone scheme. That's ultimately what Scangarello is trying to run.

    When it's working effectively the run/pass/play action all work in tandem off one another -- they all look the same to the defense and it becomes difficult to defend.

    If you're playing from behind and having to straight drop all the time then you're kind of dead in the water with this scheme and this offensive line. Hopefully with some better QB and o-line play, combined with more experienced players in the scheme, you can start to see some more effectiveness with the scheme. Right now they're just treading water.

  9. The Following 3 Users High Fived Buff For This Post:


  10. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    6-3/215
    Adopted Bronco:
    Mighty Quinn
    Posts
    36,988

    Default

    I cringe at criticizing playcalling, for the most part, just like anyone else I know what I like and I know what I don’t like ... and I know a great playcall when I see one and a bullshit playcall when I see them. I don’t need to see trickeration, I don’t mind it but don’t need it.

    But in this case it’s a worthy exercise when done in conjunction of discussing philosophy, because this playcaller can’t separate the two when need be. Philosophy is fine unless you can’t impose your will. Their philosophy is WCO, set up the passing/play action game using the run but you have to be able to pass them out of run defenses, and run them out of pass defenses ... this comes down to anticipation from the coordinator imo, not to mention personnel (especially on the OL) but let’s not get into that yet.

    Back in their heyday the Broncos could set up the passing game using the run and set up the run using the passing game, everybody credits TD with making JFE a champion but it was symbiotic ... TD never happens w/o JFE. Teams had to fear both and it sure af wasn’t all play action, the Broncos could come out throwing on a team with a defense that matched up well in the running game.

    Elway wants an offense like that but with more wide open trends, like the one in SF ... problem is playcalling is anticipation and this OC has a ways to go.

    “Scangarello is learning too”— JFE
    Last edited by Simple Jaded; 11-25-2019 at 03:22 PM.
    "Tuning ... into each other ... lift all higher”
    “I’m just different!”
    “ . . . Picture a cup in the middle of the sea”

    Draft
    1st round— Cooper Dejean CB
    2nd round— Jack Sawyer OLB
    3rd round— Will Shipley RB
    4th round— Ricky Pearsall WR
    5th round— Ladd McKonkey WR
    6th round— Cash Jones RB
    7th round— Carson Steele RB

  11. The Following 5 Users High Fived Simple Jaded For This Post:


  12. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Pat Bowlen
    Posts
    97,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    Elway's bias is towards the offenses he won Super Bowls in - the Mike Shanahan-style, west-coast, wide zone scheme. That's ultimately what Scangarello is trying to run.

    When it's working effectively the run/pass/play action all work in tandem off one another -- they all look the same to the defense and it becomes difficult to defend.

    If you're playing from behind and having to straight drop all the time then you're kind of dead in the water with this scheme and this offensive line. Hopefully with some better QB and o-line play, combined with more experienced players in the scheme, you can start to see some more effectiveness with the scheme. Right now they're just treading water.
    You can’t abandon your philosophy down 6 or down 13 as much as they did yesterday. And too many times this season, I’ve watched them need two or three yards and pull the fullback for a spread formation. Dance with the one who brought you.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

  13. The Following 2 Users High Fived MOtorboat For This Post:


  14. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Albany, OR
    Adopted Bronco:
    Miller Time
    Posts
    12,233

    Default

    Jano was the only FB that made the 53 man. You have a useless roster spot with booker and there are 3 TE on the 53 man roster.

    I think this is a fairly standard roster position-wise with the FB instead of a another WR, 3 half backs and 3 TEs. Part of the issues is the OL. Need athletic players for west coast with quick feet instead normal big road graders for a run first offense Fangio wants. I think their OL is not a fit for the offense they want to run. I feel like the OL is patch work and don’t really mesh well together scheme wise.

  15. The Following User High Fived NightTerror218 For This Post:


  16. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Taysom Hill
    Posts
    40,863

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    You can’t abandon your philosophy down 6 or down 13 as much as they did yesterday. And too many times this season, I’ve watched them need two or three yards and pull the fullback for a spread formation. Dance with the one who brought you.
    They were loading the box daring Allen to beat them, as you'd expect. I don't think we should read too deeply into what amounts to a scheduled loss. One more reason why it made sense to wait to start Lock.

  17. The Following 2 Users High Fived Buff For This Post:


  18. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Javonte Williams
    Posts
    31,747

    Default

    The question then becomes:

    Was departing from the optimal strategy, based on personnel and coordinator expertise, justified by in-game tactical choices?

    On 3d and 6 it's difficult to justify a run.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting
    "You know cos I just lost my parents--both my parents died in the same year...to this day, people come up to me and say 'my dad died and that album really meant a lot to me,' which is very nourishing {pats heart} for a songwriter to hear that your songs have a utility beyond just their own solace, that it actually helps other people."

  19. #11

    Default

    To be honest, there were reports a few weeks ago that we were running plays we hadn't even practiced. It honestly feels like we just show up and sort of do things. Sometimes it feels like Scangs is almost trying to be too smart. Other times it's like he's so dense.

    Here's the part I struggle with. We're told we're doing Shanahan/WCO things, right? That's what we heard all offseason.

    https://www.pressdemocrat.com/sports...kyle-shanahans

    Kyle Shanahan, in his own words, doesn't run the WCO. It feels like Scangs has taken aspects of the WCO, and aspects of the Shanny offense, and just made them an awful ineffective amalgamation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  20. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Adopted Bronco:
    Justin Simmons
    Posts
    5,564

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by King87 View Post
    To be honest, there were reports a few weeks ago that we were running plays we hadn't even practiced. It honestly feels like we just show up and sort of do things. Sometimes it feels like Scangs is almost trying to be too smart. Other times it's like he's so dense.

    Here's the part I struggle with. We're told we're doing Shanahan/WCO things, right? That's what we heard all offseason.

    https://www.pressdemocrat.com/sports...kyle-shanahans

    Kyle Shanahan, in his own words, doesn't run the WCO. It feels like Scangs has taken aspects of the WCO, and aspects of the Shanny offense, and just made them an awful ineffective amalgamation.
    I agree with a lot of this. My concern is that you got a young play-caller who has a roster that's not built to fit what he would like to do offensive Lee. So again identity is the big question here just as Moe was saying. I think given his background that there's potential, but you have to build the roster to fit the system to a certain degree. I also think that rich would do well to follow the way Phillips model and fit his system to his personnel and stay consistent.

  21. The Following 2 Users High Fived Jsteve01 For This Post:


  22. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    A galaxy far far away
    Adopted Bronco:
    Rey
    Posts
    21,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    I don’t have time for this.
    There you go being offensive again

  23. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsteve01 View Post
    I agree with a lot of this. My concern is that you got a young play-caller who has a roster that's not built to fit what he would like to do offensive Lee. So again identity is the big question here just as Moe was saying. I think given his background that there's potential, but you have to build the roster to fit the system to a certain degree. I also think that rich would do well to follow the way Phillips model and fit his system to his personnel and stay consistent.
    Scangs is 47/48. He's not young. I think he's inexperienced, and I think that's what you mean? Not trying to nitpick you, my friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  24. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Pat Bowlen
    Posts
    97,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis View Post
    There you go being offensive again
    Suck it, Euro.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

  25. The Following User High Fived MOtorboat For This Post:


Go
Shop AFC Champions and Super Bowl gear at the official online Pro Shop of the Denver Broncos!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Whats our Identity?
    By HammeredOut in forum Broncos Talk
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 09-25-2011, 03:33 PM
  2. Identity Crisis
    By TXBRONC in forum Broncos Talk
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-30-2007, 11:21 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
status.broncosforums.com - BroncosForums status updates
Partner with the USA Today Sports Media Group