Thread: Elway

Originally Posted by underrated29

It actually was not the drops. It was the laying out for a ball, or lack thereof. And I am going to burn some peoples souls when I do it too.

You talking about the dude who broke a SB receptions record with a separated shoulder, while the rest of the offense was losing by 5 TDs? And caught a TD to prevent us becoming the first team shut out in a SB?

Kid's got no heart; totally lacks commitment... .

Regarding Elway, as the living embodiment of the Mile High Magic, he excels at attracting the best of the players who grew up watching him--but his final season on the field immediately preceded Peyton Manings first.

His track record of retaining established and evaluating prospective talents is spotty (and that's being kind.) An elite player by even HoF standards; I still believe Staubach was and Rodgers is better, but both of them usually had far more support than Elway did all but his final seasons. As a GM though, his drafts are horrible, which has made his efforts to emulate The Patriot Way far less successful than the original (plus he doesn't cheat; not sure Patriot Way can succeed without that.)

It remains to be seen whether the current generation of elite players is willing sign a contract knowing they'll be expected to accept a lowball renegotiation halfway through it. With the league being what it is today, the few solid draft picks Elway does find are as certain to reject "hometown discounts" as he is to demand them. Thanks to revenue sharing, that may be good for the Broncos, Inc. bottom line, but revenue sharing ensures that'll remain healthy for the foreseeable future in any event (and the new salary floor limits its return anyway.) But it's very bad for the teams winning percentage.

Part of me can't help wondering if the Broncos winding up with Joseph while Shanny Jr. went off to do what he's doing in SF had as much to do with money as any rumors of bad blood between Elway and Mike Shanahan. Elway and Wade got along fine until Wade expected to be paid what he's worth; then he was out the door before you could say, "Demaryius Who?"

Originally Posted by Joel

You talking about the dude who broke a SB receptions record with a separated shoulder, while the rest of the offense was losing by 5 TDs? And caught a TD to prevent us becoming the first team shut out in a SB?

Kid's got no heart; totally lacks commitment... .

Regarding Elway, as the living embodiment of the Mile High Magic, he excels at attracting the best of the players who grew up watching him--but his final season on the field immediately preceded Peyton Manings first.

His track record of retaining established and evaluating prospective talents is spotty (and that's being kind.) An elite player by even HoF standards; I still believe Staubach was and Rodgers is better, but both of them usually had far more support than Elway did all but his final seasons. As a GM though, his drafts are horrible, which has made his efforts to emulate The Patriot Way far less successful than the original (plus he doesn't cheat; not sure Patriot Way can succeed without that.)

It remains to be seen whether the current generation of elite players is willing sign a contract knowing they'll be expected to accept a lowball renegotiation halfway through it. With the league being what it is today, the few solid draft picks Elway does find are as certain to reject "hometown discounts" as he is to demand them. Thanks to revenue sharing, that may be good for the Broncos, Inc. bottom line, but revenue sharing ensures that'll remain healthy for the foreseeable future in any event (and the new salary floor limits its return anyway.) But it's very bad for the teams winning percentage.

Part of me can't help wondering if the Broncos winding up with Joseph while Shanny Jr. went off to do what he's doing in SF had as much to do with money as any rumors of bad blood between Elway and Mike Shanahan. Elway and Wade got along fine until Wade expected to be paid what he's worth; then he was out the door before you could say, "Demaryius Who?"

Like in '13-'15, the everything is different when you have a solid QB. His drafts haven't been horrible, some have been very good, some have been average. Every team misses on more players than they hit on.

The one and only thing that has led to the Broncos struggles post Manning has been the lack of a solid QB. You can hide an average QB if you have a phenomenal line and running game (which relies on the great line), but barring that, you simply cannot overcome an average (siemean) or bad (Keenum and Flacco) QB.

If Lock finishes the season without imploding and gains the much needed experience, and is the starter next year, then the Broncos will perform better and those "horrible" drafts will turn into winning seasons.

The reality of the situation is that the Broncos have failed to get a viable QB (draft or FA) post Manning, and have failed to get a quality RT. Short of that, the team has had more success than failures in draft and FA.

Elway has had solid drafts, bad drafts and a couple good drafts as of late, he started out with good FA's as well but since they have been pretty poor and haven't worked out for the most part. Criticism of Elway is warranted as much as gratitude for what he did bring us to this point, its not that some of us are spoiled its that we can clearly see issues so it makes no sense when a dude like him or any GM who makes millions cant see what's staring them in the face....

No one is perfect, but some of his mistakes in the draft a few years back and recently FA have been glaring and just plain dumb moves. For example Menelik Watson was widely panned across NFL circles. What were we thinking, conversely while James hasn't worked out because of injury, most NFL circles thought it was a good move and attempt to finally address our RT problem.

Originally Posted by Elevation inc

Elway has had solid drafts, bad drafts and a couple good drafts as of late, he started out with good FA's as well but since they have been pretty poor and haven't worked out for the most part. Criticism of Elway is warranted as much as gratitude for what he did bring us to this point, its not that some of us are spoiled its that we can clearly see issues so it makes no sense when a dude like him or any GM who makes millions cant see what's staring them in the face....

No one is perfect, but some of his mistakes in the draft a few years back and recently FA have been glaring and just plain dumb moves. For example Menelik Watson was widely panned across NFL circles. What were we thinking, conversely while James hasn't worked out because of injury, most NFL circles thought it was a good move and attempt to finally address our RT problem.

Again, like most GMs, some free agents work, some don't. Jackson, Shelby Harris, Alexander Johnson, etc. have been fine or excellent pickups. Bryce Calahan, as is often the case when you draft/sign an injured player.

As I previously mentioned, his glaring FA failures have been at RT and QB, which are both tough positions to fill via free agency because the best players (LT and RT) either don't leave their team or command top dollar, so they've tried to get FA tackles who "are good but for injury" and other risky moves.

Outside of QB (nearly impossible to fill with a good to great player via free agency) and RT, you have to give the Broncos high marks for free agency pickups on both sides of the ball, but especially defense.

As fans, we have a tendency to focus on the busts and failures and not the many small and large successes.

Again, if the Broncos had a good QB the last few years, we wouldn't be focusing on the handful of FA failures, instead we would be talking about playoff wins/losses.

Originally Posted by Tned

Again, like most GMs, some free agents work, some don't. Jackson, Shelby Harris, Alexander Johnson, etc. have been fine or excellent pickups. Bryce Calahan, as is often the case when you draft/sign an injured player.

As I previously mentioned, his glaring FA failures have been at RT and QB, which are both tough positions to fill via free agency because the best players (LT and RT) either don't leave their team or command top dollar, so they've tried to get FA tackles who "are good but for injury" and other risky moves.

Outside of QB (nearly impossible to fill with a good to great player via free agency) and RT, you have to give the Broncos high marks for free agency pickups on both sides of the ball, but especially defense.

As fans, we have a tendency to focus on the busts and failures and not the many small and large successes.

Again, if the Broncos had a good QB the last few years, we wouldn't be focusing on the handful of FA failures, instead we would be talking about playoff wins/losses.

your not wrong about RT and QB, Flacco being the most egregious at QB and then Watson and Stephenson at RT.....I personally am having tough time with the fact he tried to sell flacco being in his prime, when everything statistically pointed to that not being the case at all....he also refused to cut bait on Lynch and felt throwing a 7th rd rookie into play behind a not so talented team was the way to go....I actually have far more love for TS then most here because he outplayed his 7th rd. pick status that year similarly to what Kyle Allen did a bit for Carolina this year.

With that being said he ignored some key players he should have re-signed like Malik Jackson and Trevathan and he tried to undercut guys like Calais Campbell. He made mistakes some that truly hurt us....that cant be argued.....he also made big decisions that truly helped us and that cant be argued either....

Originally Posted by Elevation inc

your not wrong about RT and QB, Flacco being the most egregious at QB and then Watson and Stephenson at RT.....I personally am having tough time with the fact he tried to sell flacco being in his prime, when everything statistically pointed to that not being the case at all....he also refused to cut bait on Lynch and felt throwing a 7th rd rookie into play behind a not so talented team was the way to go....I actually have far more love for TS then most here because he outplayed his 7th rd. pick status that year similarly to what Kyle Allen did a bit for Carolina this year.

With that being said he ignored some key players he should have re-signed like Malik Jackson and Trevathan and he tried to undercut guys like Calais Campbell. He made mistakes some that truly hurt us....that cant be argued.....he also made big decisions that truly helped us and that cant be argued either....

If he had resigned Jackson, we wouldn't have Von, for instance.

No team can keep all their good players, which is why there are so many free agents.

I think it's like accounting. If we are going to really evaluate Elway as a GM, we should create T accounts and list the good and bad free agent signings. Which drafted players he's kept or lost. Which drafted players/college free agents turned into starters/contributors and which didn't and/or were busts (and this one has to have for context how other teams have done).

Number of wins, division titles, SB/SB Wins, etc.

Originally Posted by Tned

Like in '13-'15, the everything is different when you have a solid QB. His drafts haven't been horrible, some have been very good, some have been average. Every team misses on more players than they hit on.

The one and only thing that has led to the Broncos struggles post Manning has been the lack of a solid QB. You can hide an average QB if you have a phenomenal line and running game (which relies on the great line), but barring that, you simply cannot overcome an average (siemean) or bad (Keenum and Flacco) QB.

If Lock finishes the season without imploding and gains the much needed experience, and is the starter next year, then the Broncos will perform better and those "horrible" drafts will turn into winning seasons.

The reality of the situation is that the Broncos have failed to get a viable QB (draft or FA) post Manning, and have failed to get a quality RT. Short of that, the team has had more success than failures in draft and FA.

No, his drafts between 2013 and 2017 were flat horrible.

2018 and 2019? A bit better. Still not awesome unless Drew Lock proves to be great -- and we don't know that yet.

Nobody can spin THIS Crap!

2017 draft:
1 Garett Bolles
2 DeMarcus Walker
3 Carlos Henderson
3 Brendan Langley
5 Jake Butt
5 Isaiah McKenzie
6 De'Angelo Henderson
7 Chad Kelly

0 for 8.

That was only 2 years ago guys, not ancient history.

And 2018? Yes Bradley Chubb is a good player, but that was a wasted draft pick. They HAD the NFL's current sack leader in Shaqil Barrett but didn't value him so they let him leave in FA and drafted Chubb instead of re-signing Barrett and taking All-Pro G Quenton Nelson who has solidified the Indy OL and will probably wind up in Canton.

That is a severe indictment of Elway as a talent evaluator. All Barrett wanted was a chance to start, and they couldn't get rid of him fast enough because they had already drafted his replacement with the #5 overall pick? Meanwhile the guy you let go winds up in the Pro-bowl after leading the NFL in sacks?

You Elway loyalists can start making your excuses now.

Originally Posted by Cugel

No, his drafts between 2013 and 2017 were flat horrible.

2018 and 2019? A bit better. Still not awesome unless Drew Lock proves to be great -- and we don't know that yet.

Nobody can spin THIS Crap!

2017 draft:
1 Garett Bolles
2 DeMarcus Walker
3 Carlos Henderson
3 Brendan Langley
5 Jake Butt
5 Isaiah McKenzie
6 De'Angelo Henderson
7 Chad Kelly

0 for 8.

That was only 2 years ago guys, not ancient history.

Bolles is a starter
Walker is a starter
Mckenzie is a player for bills. Not a good draft. Butt is always hurt.


The last two drafts have not been a bit better. They have been incredible!

Crazy that the NFL sack leader was in the building and they let him go though. Dude has 15 sacks or something like that 3/4 into the season, was on the roster here for 4 years or so. Surprised they didn't realize what they had.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Crazy that the NFL sack leader was in the building and they let him go though. Dude has 15 sacks or something like that 3/4 into the season, was on the roster here for 4 years or so. Surprised they didn't realize what they had.

He signed a one year, $4 million deal. That shows you how not a single GM in the NFL saw this coming, or he would have been signed to a multi year, much larger deal.

The Broncos liked him, but couldn't pay a backup $4 million, and while he played well in Denver, he never showed that he could be a 20 sack type player, or he would have been starting in Denver.

Originally Posted by Tned

He signed a one year, $4 million deal. That shows you how not a single GM in the NFL saw this coming, or he would have been signed to a multi year, much larger deal.

The Broncos liked him, but couldn't pay a backup $4 million, and while he played well in Denver, he never showed that he could be a 20 sack type player, or he would have been starting in Denver.

It was a case of us not recognizing what we had, and falls on everyone present, not just the GM.

Originally Posted by Tned

He signed a one year, $4 million deal. That shows you how not a single GM in the NFL saw this coming, or he would have been signed to a multi year, much larger deal.

The Broncos liked him, but couldn't pay a backup $4 million, and while he played well in Denver, he never showed that he could be a 20 sack type player, or he would have been starting in Denver.

There was noise inside and outside the building that Shaq was the #2 edge talent. They knew he'd be good, but they figured they'd go another direction.

It's kind of a fluke, but it's also kind of a miss. Shaq didn't grow a third arm or something like that.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

There was noise inside and outside the building that Shaq was the #2 edge talent. They knew he'd be good, but they figured they'd go another direction.

It's kind of a fluke, but it's also kind of a miss. Shaq didn't grow a third arm or something like that.

If we knew what we had, we could have traded back or landed Quenton Nelson.

We also need to see Shaq have another big year, especially since half his sacks have come in two games. Variance/flukes happen in all things.

Originally Posted by King87

If we knew what we had, we could have traded back or landed Quenton Nelson.

We also need to see Shaq have another big year, especially since half his sacks have come in two games. Variance/flukes happen in all things.

I like how PFF grades edge--sacks often tell a misleading story. Edge rushers love their sack stat, fans do too, but guess who's pass defense is 31/32 in terms of yards per game? Shaq's.

The fact that so many sacks lead to turnovers is a big deal...but they are a fluky thing.

Overall, when you grade Elway's performance, things like this should be included in that grade. Bottom line, they could have signed him, they didn't. Like the draft--you could have picked Cousins or Wilson instead of Brock...if it's just an unknowable crap-shoot, then why not let robots do your job.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

I like how PFF grades edge--sacks often tell a misleading story. Edge rushers love their sack stat, fans do too, but guess who's pass defense is 31/32 in terms of yards per game? Shaq's.

The fact that so many sacks lead to turnovers is a big deal...but they are a fluky thing.

Overall, when you grade Elway's performance, things like this should be included in that grade. Bottom line, they could have signed him, they didn't. Like the draft--you could have picked Cousins or Wilson instead of Brock...if it's just an unknowable crap-shoot, then why not let robots do your job.

Oh absolutely. Sacks can be fluky. Antwan Odom for the Bengals comes to mind. Regardless, the best indicator of consistent sack numbers from year to year aren't sacks (weird, right) it's actually pressures because if one year your numbers are down but your pressures/hits are the same, it means you probably ran into more mobile QB's, were able to beat a chip/double team, and while not getting the sack, impact the play still. You can also play against old brittle men who fall down like Flacco/Orton. It is interesting.

Thank god for us Elway broke from the giraffe mold/scrappy scrub mold and found a guy with legitimate first round talent.