Thread: The schematic problems on the defense

Originally Posted by Nomad

Not sure. I was high on a MLB this past draft. Time will tell if it all works out with how the 2019 draft went.

Fant at 20 seemed like an OK pick, but so far not looking great. But we'll see. OJ Howard was a lock and he's been an NFL zero just about.

I'm ok with missing on a stud MLB if Lock is the real deal...I mean...duh.

I like what Elway did, just hope that Fant is a 16 game starter of average to above average value...and Lock is an NFL QB1.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Mosley might be a money vacuum for the JEST, but I dare you to add up Menelik + Stephenson + Cravens + Ju'wan + Bryce...and say we have done better by avoiding that contract.

We have not done better. Because Mosley is a good consistent player, and Menelik was awful, Stephenson was not a solution, Cravens should be good and was good for an eight game stretch as a rookie...Bryce was and has been good and that one hurts the most, ironically.

I guess if we were to have a money dump on a good player he'd be the one I want least out of Campbell and Whitworth, as both of those guys should end up in Canton.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Fant at 20 seemed like an OK pick, but so far not looking great. But we'll see. OJ Howard was a lock and he's been an NFL zero just about.

I'm ok with missing on a stud MLB if Lock is the real deal...I mean...duh.

I like what Elway did, just hope that Fant is a 16 game starter of average to above average value...and Lock is an NFL QB1.

I like Fant, tbh. He's made rookie mistakes...it just so happens the rest of his team plays like a rookie. I think we're harder on Fant than we should be and take out our frustrations on him...even though he's not responsible for Butt, IRman, etc. all sucking.

Our roster is so flawed Hawg just talked me into overpaying a MLB who is only average at coverage...and we're a team that has no good coverage backers.

Holy ****.

So what can the Broncos do to be better with the personnel they have on defense?

Originally Posted by Nomad

So what can the Broncos do to be better with the personnel they have on defense?

Fangio in his pressers comes off as deferential and too chummy to the players. He has to hold their feet to the fire. He also has to stop calling defensive plays like he's scared.

Originally Posted by Nomad

So what can the Broncos do to be better with the personnel they have on defense?

Idk man. Everyone says play press and bring more pressure. It worked with Wade, right? Bausby ain't Talib tho. Plus we had Danny T. You could say Simmons + Jackson ≅ Ward + Stewart, but we have no coverage LB and that seems to have been the biggest problem every year since 2015.

I have no idea, but it feels like we need to take some risks to be disruptive--we are getting ground into powder by the end of these games on defense and we have too many playmakers who aren't causing massive disruption. It feels like we need a more aggressive, turnover-generating, but explosive-play allowing, type of defense.

But that just feels wrong to even say. So idk.

Originally Posted by Nomad

So what can the Broncos do to be better with the personnel they have on defense?

What are your thoughts?

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

I wonder if 'special' MLB is some magical key ingredient to his defense. The two years he's had elite results as a DC could be attributed to personnel rather than scheme:

2011, SFO, Overall defense 2d in points, 4th in yards, 1st in takeaways. Key players - N. Bowman, P. Willis, J. Smith, A. Smith, D. Goldson. 1st year as DC with J. Harbs as HC taking over from Singletary.
2012, SFO, Overall ranks about the same, fewer takeaways. Same personnel.
2013, SFO, same ranks (approx) same personnel, except Reid in at FS instead of D. Goldson.
2014--SFO, some regression, 10th in points, 5th in yards, lost Bowman and Willis + Aldon Smith both only played 6 games

Testing out the hypothesis of personnel dependence: let's look at the jump between 2017 CHI and 2018 CHI. Big jump in defensive statistical rankings. 2017-->#10 defense, 2018-->#1 defense.

2017 personnel: this is weird because they only had 3(!) sixteen-game starters on defense--Kyle Fuller (CB), Eddie Jackson (S), and Akiem Hicks (DE). Holy crap did you know Hicks is listed at 352# DE? Two others who played 12 games: Prince Amuka and Danny T.

Anyhoo...

2018 personnel:

Roquan Smith, rookie, plays 16 games and leads team in tackles. 5 sacks and some PD's too. Not bad.
Danny T plays all 16 games.
Hicks, Jackson, and Fuller play all 16 again this year, with two of them getting All Pro nods and all 3 making the pro bowl (none made a pro bowl the previous year)
The obvious big addition was K. Mack.

So no key ingredient departed after 2017, but they added Roquan Smith and Khalil Mack. In addition, they got 14-16 games from all their key defensive starters, unlike 2017.

In conclusion...he's had his best years when his off-the-line LBs are great against the run but are also great in coverage...

I think he needs his Bowman/Willis or his Roquan/Trevathan for the magic to happen.

Josey Davis aren’t even good against the run, they could replace both with better coverage ILB’s and you wouldn’t miss much in run defense.

There are players on PS’s around the league that are better than Denver’s ILB’s.

As for DT’s, Ryan Harris says Fangio has his DL 2-gapping, he doesn’t have a starting 2-gap NT on the roster. And again, there’s plenty of those on teams PS’s.

MO you should go back and break down a Fangio game from last year, I just watched the Wildcard game vs Eagles and he let Amukamara play tight all game long.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Fant at 20 seemed like an OK pick, but so far not looking great. But we'll see. OJ Howard was a lock and he's been an NFL zero just about.

I'm ok with missing on a stud MLB if Lock is the real deal...I mean...duh.

I like what Elway did, just hope that Fant is a 16 game starter of average to above average value...and Lock is an NFL QB1.

Bad fan disclaimer: This was before I saw the Fant TD.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Bad fan disclaimer: This was before I saw the Fant TD.

Fant is a young TE learning he is having ups and downs just like Hockenson. FYI Bush has yet to have a good graded game in Pittsburgh btw. I think we will be fine if Lock ends up being good. But for that to happen we have to get serious about turning over the players on this team and rebuilding.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

I wonder if 'special' MLB is some magical key ingredient to his defense. The two years he's had elite results as a DC could be attributed to personnel rather than scheme:

2011, SFO, Overall defense 2d in points, 4th in yards, 1st in takeaways. Key players - N. Bowman, P. Willis, J. Smith, A. Smith, D. Goldson. 1st year as DC with J. Harbs as HC taking over from Singletary.
2012, SFO, Overall ranks about the same, fewer takeaways. Same personnel.
2013, SFO, same ranks (approx) same personnel, except Reid in at FS instead of D. Goldson.
2014--SFO, some regression, 10th in points, 5th in yards, lost Bowman and Willis + Aldon Smith both only played 6 games

Testing out the hypothesis of personnel dependence: let's look at the jump between 2017 CHI and 2018 CHI. Big jump in defensive statistical rankings. 2017-->#10 defense, 2018-->#1 defense.

2017 personnel: this is weird because they only had 3(!) sixteen-game starters on defense--Kyle Fuller (CB), Eddie Jackson (S), and Akiem Hicks (DE). Holy crap did you know Hicks is listed at 352# DE? Two others who played 12 games: Prince Amuka and Danny T.

Anyhoo...

2018 personnel:

Roquan Smith, rookie, plays 16 games and leads team in tackles. 5 sacks and some PD's too. Not bad.
Danny T plays all 16 games.
Hicks, Jackson, and Fuller play all 16 again this year, with two of them getting All Pro nods and all 3 making the pro bowl (none made a pro bowl the previous year)
The obvious big addition was K. Mack.

So no key ingredient departed after 2017, but they added Roquan Smith and Khalil Mack. In addition, they got 14-16 games from all their key defensive starters, unlike 2017.

In conclusion...he's had his best years when his off-the-line LBs are great against the run but are also great in coverage...

I think he needs his Bowman/Willis or his Roquan/Trevathan for the magic to happen.

Could it be that it was simply defenses loaded with talent that won despite Fangio? Like any warm body could’ve been the DC on some of those teams and they still would’ve been a top unit. Fangio has been part of some pretty terrible defenses as well. Is he a mastermind? Or a guy who was simply along for the ride?

Originally Posted by Mike Hawk

Could it be that it was simply defenses loaded with talent that won despite Fangio? Like any warm body could’ve been the DC on some of those teams and they still would’ve been a top unit.

I don't think so. When he arrived in SFO he inherited the same personnel Tomsula/Singletary/Manusky had. Singletary/Manusky's group was a middle of the pack defense in 2010. I guess 2009 is relevant, too--they were a top 10 defense, maybe top 5.

Anyway, in 2010 Manusky had: Willis, Spikes, Clements, Goldson, Justin Smith, Bowman, Brooks
2011 Fangio had: Willis, Bowman, Goldson, Brooks, Justin Smith, Whitner, Rogers, Aldon Smith

Maybe you are right. He gets Donte Whitner, Aldon Smith, and Jim Harbaugh gives the team a stiff rudder. Maybe less a case of Fangio executing a fix and flip and more a case of getting out of the way of talented players.

Originally Posted by Mike Hawk

Is he a mastermind? Or a guy who was simply along for the ride?

Hey, I'll say this though. Sometimes being along for the ride is something a mastermind does...Wade was part spectator because he had the players that could handle their business as long as they were put in the right position and then left alone.