Thread: MO's Fangio's defensive evolution thread

This has got to be the stupidest thread title ever, but here we go.

I called the thread MO's Fangio's defensive evolution thread because I'm hoping to lure Buff and G-money into cogent discussions regarding wtf is going on with the defensive identity of this Broncos team.

Because it's worth a thread. Think about it.

Points per game and overall defense have been pretty solid. This is the type of defense that can give you a chance of winning any damn game not against Andy Reid apparently. Man, I wish some genuine smart folks would do some advanced stat stuff to show why Fangio's scheme is as solid as it feels. OK: 1) if you are not genuine smart I don't mean to be rude, go ahead share your dumb thoughts! 2) that's a joke, we are all pretty dumb, and 3) Fangio's scheme has had some big let-downs from a 4th quarter game-losing-drive perspective. If that's your thing. If freak plays and penalties should determine one's outlook on a defensive unit as a whole.

Ok. MO,.

You have looked at what Fangio is doing and you are perplexed--dismayed. And you have done a great job of making that perplexal understandable to the rest of us.

And we have this HOF, all-time pass rusher on the roster who is all but invisible. That has to be wrong somehow. Unless it's not?

But what started this thread-idea was none of this. It was actually thinking about how solid Kareem Jackson and Justin Simmon have been. And don't forget Chris Harris, even though you get this 'mail-it-in' vibe from him (or I do). But Harris Jr. is still one of the most well-prepared and technically sound corners in the game and he's a proud man who will still get in Keenan Allen's face.

The germ of the idea was that 3/4th of this secondary is still outstanding and they are playing 100% of the snaps. You bring in Purcell, and the run defense looks legitimate. Not all that many names on the defense other than that--a bunch of JAGs to a certain degree. Especially now that suddenly productive sack-leader Wolfe is out.

So I get to thinking, what is this defense, anyway? It does some things. And where does it go from here?

Feels like adding a CB would take us to the next level--I think UR is right this one time. It feels like the one obvious hole on that side of the ball, now that AJ filled the vacancy at ILB.

But what's the deal with Von and Chubb? Are they the identity of the defense?

I'll hang up and listen.

Mike Purcell.

Before him the run game was a sieve, after him, they’ve clogged the run and got pressure on the quarterback to help the secondary. He really has been a real key cog to the defensive wheel.

Originally Posted by MOtorboat

Mike Purcell.

Before him the run game was a sieve, after him, they’ve clogged the run and got pressure on the quarterback to help the secondary. He really has been a real key cog to the defensive wheel.

So if we are rolling with Fangio's scheme--as it would appear from dropping in the Purcell widget--what kind of identity is that? And is the shibboleth about turnover creation from pass-disruption actually a thing? Or is this defensive evolution the height of the craft, and vagaries of forced fumbles, pressures, and sacks be damned?

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

So if we are rolling with Fangio's scheme--as it would appear from dropping in the Purcell widget--what kind of identity is that? And is the shibboleth about turnover creation from pass-disruption actually a thing? Or is this defensive evolution the height of the craft, and vagaries of forced fumbles, pressures, and sacks be damned?

It’s definitely a bend-don’t-break defensive philosophy, which seems to be his philosophy in general, kind of conservative. I am not real enthused with his use of Miller. I don’t understand why he hasn’t been unleashed like Mack was last year. Mack had one assignment: Eat the quarterback. Fangio seems intent on using Miller as more of 4-3 over outside backer than a 3-4 outside backer (not talking about the actual scheme, but rather how we think of Miller’s assignments), and I’m not sure why.

Originally Posted by MOtorboat

It’s definitely a bend-don’t-break defensive philosophy, which seems to be his philosophy in general, kind of conservative. I am not real enthused with his use of Miller. I don’t understand why he hasn’t been unleashed like Mack was last year. Mack had one assignment: Eat the quarterback. Fangio seems intent on using Miller as more of 4-3 over outside backer than a 3-4 outside backer (not talking about the actual scheme, but rather how we think of Miller’s assignments), and I’m not sure why.

So Von's sacks are down because on more snaps than other years he's not allowed/asked to rush the passer? I'd like for it to be that factual if possible.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

So Von's sacks are down because on more snaps than other years he's not allowed/asked to rush the passer? I'd like for it to be that factual if possible.

It feels like he's had a lot of assignments in coverage, and they were using him in contain, which is to basically shadow the quarterback and keep him in the pocket rather than rush the quarterback against more mobile quarterbacks. He hasn't completely neutered his pass rush, it just feels like he's asking him to be more of an outside linebacker than a edge rusher.

Let's preface this with that Miller, even with those assignments, is still getting premium ratings from PFF and FO, and such. He's still a stud, but his impact as a pass rusher specifically has been diminished, and I do believe its the scheme.

Seems to me Fangio has Von “Level rushing”* a lot too, meaning he’s rushing the passer but not passed the level the QB is on, it’s conservative to say the least ... the idea is to keep the QB from killing you on the ground.

*Per Booger

Originally Posted by MOtorboat

Mike Purcell.

Before him the run game was a sieve, after him, they’ve clogged the run and got pressure on the quarterback to help the secondary. He really has been a real key cog to the defensive wheel.

He had Shelby Harris playing out of position at NT and has Von containing/covering. Genius.

Originally Posted by Jaded

He had Shelby Harris playing out of position at NT and has Von containing/covering. Genius.

I detect sarcasm!

I agree it's a stupid thread title.

Cugel's Fangio's defensive evolution thread would have been more compelling,IMO.

Originally Posted by slim

I agree it's a stupid thread title.

Cugel's Fangio's defensive evolution thread would have been more compelling,IMO.

You get what you pay for!!

what I see is a defense that is much more complex than it seems, the players have mentioned that

the bears were the 29th ranked total defense before Fangio, by the end of his first season that improved to 14th by his 4th the 3rd ranked total defense

I think his defense depends on the interior crushing the pocket, the OLB cleaning it up and stopping the qb from getting out of the pocket,
keep in mind when chubb played we were in the middle of the failed harris at NT experiment, there was no pocket collapsing, and the offense could focus on the outside pass rush

he also was relying on Callahan securing one side of the field, CHJ the other...we went from callaham to yiadom, to bausby, to harris and back to yiadom.

once we switched to percell at nose and moved Shelby to DE opposite of wolfe we started to see the defense for what it could be, but by then we had lost the bookend to von
playing a rookie who has virtually no impact in pass defense focuses attention to von, imagine where we could be today if we had Chubb, harris, percell. wolfe and von

next year I think we will really see some improvment



I

I’m just sad because I miss seeing Von Miller destroy quarterbacks.

Im with Arapaho on a lot of this.
The bears took a couple years to really get it going.


I think he hasnt not released von yet is several fold. 1. We do not have the backend secured. We have the S, but we are lacking on the DB department (mainly because of injuries). Once we have the Dbs in order that shell is tough to break. Because of that we can let von loose a little bit more. Also with Von is the lack of another LB to cover him up. Remember, Wolfe used to eat up blockers so Von could be set free. Thats not how fangio plays it. So we cannot let von go until we have someone capable of covering him up.

Chubb was tearing it up before he got hurt. I expect he will again once he is back.


Really what i see separating this defense from a top 5 that we can have faith in will shut the doors when needed is:
1 more really good CB or two if Harris leaves us.
One more speedy ILB.
One more big boss in the middle of the DL and or a DE who can hold his own on the run and apply pressure.


The bears had a great secondary- amos, fuller, callahan, forget their other S, their LBS were also good- Trev miss ya buddy- and their Dline was one of the best in the leauge! REally good Dline. I think to get the scheme operating at 100% we need the DL and the DBs. We just need 1 of each. With as many HIGH draft picks as we have that should be pretty easily attainable. Lets also not forget that Dremont and Justin are young- they could grow into one of those roles needed.

I think Fangio really was expecting Chubb to fill what was that Mack role instead of Miller and I think he designed the scheme for that, and of course that got turned upside down when Chubb got hurt. They were funneling the run to Chubb in the first couple of games, before Purcell was inserted, and I think Chubb was handling it pretty well. The problem early was the front three weren’t big enough. That’s why Purcell has made such a difference.