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Thread: Would Elway get his ass slapped by Mahomes?

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    John probably would have broken many records in today's league.
    What are the reasons he might fail to succeed or break records? Why would he break records, when compared to others?

    Yeah, I know I'm going abstract but obviously we are both here on a Friday night...

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground Control View Post
    Mahomes is cute but him clowning Von with a left handed pass is all too real. Because he continuously follows it up with crazy pass after crazy pass. Not just gimmick passes that become NFL legend but passes he makes seem ordinary but are antithetical to the NFL normality. Continuously, while being 'chased' by the best in the business. Those passes are more than legerdemain, his escapability is more than 'hybrid'. He's more than an equal to any QB, whether they be 'mobile' or 'pocket'. Anyone that defines him in such simplistic terms is definitely not an apposing HC or DC. If they are (or were), they got beat. That is all.

    I'm not crowning him at all either, because a crown is all about pomp and stance. A crown is about pedigree and establishment. In this case, I am arguing against such ineffable measures of recognition. I'm saying that he is truly different and we haven't seen anything like him before. He is maybe the perfect NFL QB and even if he fails, he is still the new NFL QB. His abilities aren't just about mobility, since mobility is just another tool in his bag of tricks. A team can't pattern or adjust to him because he is not a gimmick or a slight spin on a scheme. He just does shit. Like Gronk is a man among men when it comes to physicality, Mahomes is a man among men when it comes to making plays. He's not a god and he gets beat. But how many times will he get beat out of 10?

    I will agree that he comes out of a new movement of presumed 'hybrid' QBs but he is now the measure of that movement and QBs like Jackson are outliers. Hybrid will get lost in the mix as a term to be used though, as it becomes more and more just 'the modern QB'. It will be what recruiters use to pretend to be smart when they are simply opening their eyes to what is in front of them.

    You are right though and it is worth noting the last SB in my response: Of the two 'prototypical' NFL QB's, one has had his costume ripped from him and was revealed to be a puppet of small value when his strings are cut (and he had to think for himself in the last 15 seconds before each play). The other is the GOAT. And the team that won the SB was coached by the GOAT. I'm NOT a Patriots fan, just a realist.

    So, to embrace your points: Maybe it's not so much that we have to look forward to a league of freaks that are outliers but more to a league of extremely talented QBs that break the mold and are no longer defined by size, predictability, or the expectations of the 'Old NFL'...as well as QBs that are tall and strong, and can intelligently pick apart a defense with their talents, like Brady and such. That would be cool and probably what is going to happen.

    Either way, Lock is stupid, just like Goff. Stupidity and rigidity is being flayed from the image of what is expected of the modern QB, if nothing else, I hope. Elway was often a clown and a loser as a QB but he was never stupid. And he was a dog and a killer throughout it all. If we draft his clone, we should draft Haskins. Yep, he's black which may be an issue to Elway but he really is the new and improved Elway (sans the 56% completion percentage). Hopefully, you have seen past Mahomes as being some sort of 'runner' QB. That's like calling Theramin a DJ. He's a passer while running. He's a passer while standing still. He's a passer while sitting on the toilet and allowing the majority of today's QBs to wipe his ass. He may be proven to be a flash in the pan but for now, the query still stands: How would the best Elway stand up to the best Mahomes on teams equally matched and equally coached? Not clone teams but teams of equal but differing talents...solely for the purpose of embracing the comparison.

    P.S. I'm not a Mahomes acolyte, just a realist. As with the Pats. And I f'ing love Fangio and the old school approach that he brings to the Broncos. That is what won the SB and proves we have our own Belidick, finally. I'm just saying that we will be seeing more QBs that break the mold than those that are moldy. We can still love the hell out of mold, like aged cheese, but we (Denver in particular) can't be held down by mindless pursuit of pomp and pedigree. Draft/ sign the best available talent, true? We should apply the same very rational view towards QBs that we do towards the rest of the positions. Currently, QBs stand in a weird sort of twilight zone that no one knows how to define them and it seems like a miracle that a team picks the right guy. The future will see us seeing talent for talent and will care less about archetypes for the sake of archetypes.

    Anyway, what do you think?

    I like your zest with this although you probably could have summed it up in one paragraph. Lol

    Never the less i still think at this stage you are counting your chickens before they hatch. The reason why i say this is as of now Mahomes is really the only outlier and as far as the NFL transforming into something else i heard this a few years back when Tebow came into the league. Problem is its the same type of QB's making and winning the SB every year. I know some people are really on the Haskins and Murray trains but my personal feeling is those guys will fail at the pro level and for me until i see more consistency with the new "breed" of QB's taking over the league and winning championships im going to remain skeptical that there will be this massive change in direction. Right now the league is still dominated by the old school type of QB's and i dont see a lot changing in that manner.

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  4. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by King87 View Post
    His accuracy improved when he had a decent team around him. Yeah, I really worry about Elway in a league where you can throw people open because the hits are softer, there's less physical abuse on QB's, TE's are basically just bigger WR's, and offenses are more updated than ever before. I'm sure the mobile, rocket armed, strong, athletic, hard-working QB in Elway would struggle.
    Just to go devil's advocate; Isn't throwing open a receiver a trait used by QBs that have the shortest release times? Since it means that the QB doesn't wait until a receiver has competed his route and is open? Don't mean to be contrary (although I can definitely go there). I just mean to go deep on this subject. Thanks for playing.

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  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground Control View Post
    What are the reasons he might fail to succeed or break records? Why would he break records, when compared to others?

    Yeah, I know I'm going abstract but obviously we are both here on a Friday night...
    John was a freak of nature, i dont know how old you are and how long you have been a Bronco fan but before the Patrick Mahomes there was the John Elway. And he didnt have guys like Tarik Hill or Travis Kelce in his early years so the fact that he was able to put a franchise on his back and get them to 3 SB's was pretty impressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoWave View Post
    You seem to know a lot about homos.
    Well I've known you for almost a decade.

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  9. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    I like your zest with this although you probably could have summed it up in one paragraph. Lol

    Never the less i still think at this stage you are counting your chickens before they hatch. The reason why i say this is as of now Mahomes is really the only outlier and as far as the NFL transforming into something else i heard this a few years back when Tebow came into the league. Problem is its the same type of QB's making and winning the SB every year. I know some people are really on the Haskins and Murray trains but my personal feeling is those guys will fail at the pro level and for me until i see more consistency with the new "breed" of QB's taking over the league and winning championships im going to remain skeptical that there will be this massive change in direction. Right now the league is still dominated by the old school type of QB's and i dont see a lot changing in that manner.
    I only get out one night a week, so read at your peril. But thanks for reading and replying. I think we may be comparing apples to prunes, and maybe trying to find common ground is the culprit. When speaking of the general movements, that's fair ground but maybe I should split the debate into to parts?

    One: Mahomes. He's different and HOF Qb commentators and apposing coaches get all giddy, like a girl going to prom when talking about him. Or, at least they pause a moment to think about their response before spouting the same old nonsense when asked about him. He is both the new QB and unreachable as a benchmark by most guys coming out of college. I may be reaching here but I think you may be limiting your view of him by accepting my proposed stationing of him as the poster child for the 'new QB' of the NFL. He is that because of his success and because he stands outside of what we have accepted to be the limits of what a human being can do at that position. Think about what you have seen him do and judge him for the film and the film, only. And again, how would Elway do against him every year on equally competitive teams, judged solely on talent and merit.

    Two: The 'New Breed' of QBs. There have been outliers in the past but just like the forward pass devastated the notion of what American Football was, the unconventional QB, as well as the continued integration of spread offense techniques and general 'nothing is prohibited' schemes, will change the league and are here to stay. On this point, I may have gotten lost in prose but I do agree that the eggs haven't hatched yet. Such things aren't better and I like to think that I have a mature palette regarding my enjoyment of the sport but they are different, and so exciting. The league will continue to move in this direction though, IMO. After processing your thoughtful response and my own gibberish, I wil go back to what I want to see from the Broncos and Elway...An open mind and a distancing from restrictive ideas. Both in terms of Elway getting over his hard wiring and taking the best course and talent available, even if it is beyond him to comprehend. Giving up control is a huge part of that, since Elway as a GM is a seriously limited dude. Looking past his and the sport's QB archetypes is the rest of it. My idea of the future of the NFL is not better than your's but we can't find out for sure until we see it explored in full in Denver, as it is being explored in the rest of the league. We can gain advantage by embracing these things intelligently, as I think that John has done with hiring Fangio. Not hopin on a bandwagon but rather taking the best talent available....in all courses.

    Crap. It's Friday and it's a word party! I will try to keep it under 2 paragraphs from here on though...

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  11. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    John was a freak of nature, i dont know how old you are and how long you have been a Bronco fan but before the Patrick Mahomes there was the John Elway. And he didnt have guys like Tarik Hill or Travis Kelce in his early years so the fact that he was able to put a franchise on his back and get them to 3 SB's was pretty impressive.
    I'm 47. I've been a football fan since being a toddler but was cursed with being born in Miami during the Marino years (my dad did bring me to the practice field for the Dolphins as a kid, and I loved it). I've been a hard core Broncos fan for 6 years, since becoming a fan of the game again. In between, I went to college and watched more NCAA games than pro games. Moved to Europe. Came back. Denver has been my home since '98.

    Otherwise, gotcha. You're saying that he carried the '98 and '99 teams on his back as a player and the '15 team as a GM. I've had a little too much drink to dive into the players and the stats but I did watch him during the Marino years as a Dolfan. He seemed to be a freak and above mere men but when I wasn't watching highlights, he clowned a bunch of games, including 3 SBs. However, these are the years that I remember him as carrying the team to heights otherwise unopened to them without him. The years he won the SB as a player, he was finally surrounded by a team of champions and a coach that has changed the game, even if he was a derivative of Bill Walsh (or, evolution, depending). Of course, Elway did lift all boats and challenge his teammates to rise to the occasion but I don't think he could have won those SBs as a player without the team around him being of equal freak value.

    As a GM, that '15 season was a freak, all on it's own. So many moments where it all could have slid out of reach. I give Elway huge credit for making the right choices to get there but the Broncos were both badass that year and lucky. And maybe it was more Manning's time to carry the Broncos? Even when Manning was a broken, less-than QB but he still lead us to the Sb win by stepping outside of himself and mostly not f'ing it up.

    Anyway, all good if you don't want to geek out with me on my terms. If you do, Elway vs Mahomes..all other factors being equal? Mahomes doesn't have Kelsey or Hill, or Elway also has them...Reid of today vs. Shanoman of yesteryear...
    Last edited by Ground Control; 02-15-2019 at 11:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground Control View Post
    You're saying that he carried the '98 and '99 teams on his back as a player
    Actually no, i was referencing the 80's teams. By the time his SB wins came about as a player he had better coaching and far superior surrounding talent around him. My comparison is that right now Mahomes has a lot of offensive weapons compared to some of the talent that John had early in his career. If you put Mahomes on the a team like the Cardinals im not sure how successful he would be.

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  14. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground Control View Post
    What are the reasons he might fail to succeed or break records? Why would he break records, when compared to others?

    Yeah, I know I'm going abstract but obviously we are both here on a Friday night...
    Look at where he was when he retired. In today's game you have way more offensive coaches who want to throw the ball, and not just chuck it, but do it efficiently. Elway's odds of being young and paired with a coach like that goes up. And let's be honest, at the time of his drafting, he was considered the greatest QB prospect ever. His mobility was great, his frame and strength was great. Elway, to this day, has one of the best arms ever. Was he the fastest? No. Strongest arm? Up there, but arguably not, but arguably so. Smartest? No. But he was elite at all of those things.

    Imagine him with Pederson, or Payton, or McVey, or Shanahan eight years earlier. He wouldn't even need to be in ideal situations. Swap Elway for Stafford (when that offensive talent/scheme wasn't a train wreck) or FFS, Elway on the Niners when they had a great defense and good all around offensive pieces.

    It's just a different league with more opportunities for QB's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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  16. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    Actually no, i was referencing the 80's teams. By the time his SB wins came about as a player he had better coaching and far superior surrounding talent around him. My comparison is that right now Mahomes has a lot of offensive weapons compared to some of the talent that John had early in his career. If you put Mahomes on the a team like the Cardinals im not sure how successful he would be.
    He got to get a year on the bench and Reid as a HC. Mahomes has had it pretty damn good thus far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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  18. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground Control View Post
    Just to go devil's advocate; Isn't throwing open a receiver a trait used by QBs that have the shortest release times? Since it means that the QB doesn't wait until a receiver has competed his route and is open? Don't mean to be contrary (although I can definitely go there). I just mean to go deep on this subject. Thanks for playing.
    Most QB's use it. Whether it's a guy with strong arm like Rodgers (who is the best at it, I've seen, IMO) or someone with a weak arm like Chad Pennington. When you do it, it's mostly based on timing, i.e. something that's practiced lot in practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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  20. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    Actually no, i was referencing the 80's teams. By the time his SB wins came about as a player he had better coaching and far superior surrounding talent around him. My comparison is that right now Mahomes has a lot of offensive weapons compared to some of the talent that John had early in his career. If you put Mahomes on the a team like the Cardinals im not sure how successful he would be.
    Gotcha and true.

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