I like your zest with this although you probably could have summed it up in one paragraph. Lol
Never the less i still think at this stage you are counting your chickens before they hatch. The reason why i say this is as of now Mahomes is really the only outlier and as far as the NFL transforming into something else i heard this a few years back when Tebow came into the league. Problem is its the same type of QB's making and winning the SB every year. I know some people are really on the Haskins and Murray trains but my personal feeling is those guys will fail at the pro level and for me until i see more consistency with the new "breed" of QB's taking over the league and winning championships im going to remain skeptical that there will be this massive change in direction. Right now the league is still dominated by the old school type of QB's and i dont see a lot changing in that manner.
Just to go devil's advocate; Isn't throwing open a receiver a trait used by QBs that have the shortest release times? Since it means that the QB doesn't wait until a receiver has competed his route and is open? Don't mean to be contrary (although I can definitely go there). I just mean to go deep on this subject. Thanks for playing.
John was a freak of nature, i dont know how old you are and how long you have been a Bronco fan but before the Patrick Mahomes there was the John Elway. And he didnt have guys like Tarik Hill or Travis Kelce in his early years so the fact that he was able to put a franchise on his back and get them to 3 SB's was pretty impressive.
I only get out one night a week, so read at your peril. But thanks for reading and replying. I think we may be comparing apples to prunes, and maybe trying to find common ground is the culprit. When speaking of the general movements, that's fair ground but maybe I should split the debate into to parts?
One: Mahomes. He's different and HOF Qb commentators and apposing coaches get all giddy, like a girl going to prom when talking about him. Or, at least they pause a moment to think about their response before spouting the same old nonsense when asked about him. He is both the new QB and unreachable as a benchmark by most guys coming out of college. I may be reaching here but I think you may be limiting your view of him by accepting my proposed stationing of him as the poster child for the 'new QB' of the NFL. He is that because of his success and because he stands outside of what we have accepted to be the limits of what a human being can do at that position. Think about what you have seen him do and judge him for the film and the film, only. And again, how would Elway do against him every year on equally competitive teams, judged solely on talent and merit.
Two: The 'New Breed' of QBs. There have been outliers in the past but just like the forward pass devastated the notion of what American Football was, the unconventional QB, as well as the continued integration of spread offense techniques and general 'nothing is prohibited' schemes, will change the league and are here to stay. On this point, I may have gotten lost in prose but I do agree that the eggs haven't hatched yet. Such things aren't better and I like to think that I have a mature palette regarding my enjoyment of the sport but they are different, and so exciting. The league will continue to move in this direction though, IMO. After processing your thoughtful response and my own gibberish, I wil go back to what I want to see from the Broncos and Elway...An open mind and a distancing from restrictive ideas. Both in terms of Elway getting over his hard wiring and taking the best course and talent available, even if it is beyond him to comprehend. Giving up control is a huge part of that, since Elway as a GM is a seriously limited dude. Looking past his and the sport's QB archetypes is the rest of it. My idea of the future of the NFL is not better than your's but we can't find out for sure until we see it explored in full in Denver, as it is being explored in the rest of the league. We can gain advantage by embracing these things intelligently, as I think that John has done with hiring Fangio. Not hopin on a bandwagon but rather taking the best talent available....in all courses.
Crap. It's Friday and it's a word party! I will try to keep it under 2 paragraphs from here on though...
I'm 47. I've been a football fan since being a toddler but was cursed with being born in Miami during the Marino years (my dad did bring me to the practice field for the Dolphins as a kid, and I loved it). I've been a hard core Broncos fan for 6 years, since becoming a fan of the game again. In between, I went to college and watched more NCAA games than pro games. Moved to Europe. Came back. Denver has been my home since '98.
Otherwise, gotcha. You're saying that he carried the '98 and '99 teams on his back as a player and the '15 team as a GM. I've had a little too much drink to dive into the players and the stats but I did watch him during the Marino years as a Dolfan. He seemed to be a freak and above mere men but when I wasn't watching highlights, he clowned a bunch of games, including 3 SBs. However, these are the years that I remember him as carrying the team to heights otherwise unopened to them without him. The years he won the SB as a player, he was finally surrounded by a team of champions and a coach that has changed the game, even if he was a derivative of Bill Walsh (or, evolution, depending). Of course, Elway did lift all boats and challenge his teammates to rise to the occasion but I don't think he could have won those SBs as a player without the team around him being of equal freak value.
As a GM, that '15 season was a freak, all on it's own. So many moments where it all could have slid out of reach. I give Elway huge credit for making the right choices to get there but the Broncos were both badass that year and lucky. And maybe it was more Manning's time to carry the Broncos? Even when Manning was a broken, less-than QB but he still lead us to the Sb win by stepping outside of himself and mostly not f'ing it up.
Anyway, all good if you don't want to geek out with me on my terms. If you do, Elway vs Mahomes..all other factors being equal? Mahomes doesn't have Kelsey or Hill, or Elway also has them...Reid of today vs. Shanoman of yesteryear...
Last edited by Ground Control; 02-15-2019 at 11:55 PM.
Actually no, i was referencing the 80's teams. By the time his SB wins came about as a player he had better coaching and far superior surrounding talent around him. My comparison is that right now Mahomes has a lot of offensive weapons compared to some of the talent that John had early in his career. If you put Mahomes on the a team like the Cardinals im not sure how successful he would be.
Look at where he was when he retired. In today's game you have way more offensive coaches who want to throw the ball, and not just chuck it, but do it efficiently. Elway's odds of being young and paired with a coach like that goes up. And let's be honest, at the time of his drafting, he was considered the greatest QB prospect ever. His mobility was great, his frame and strength was great. Elway, to this day, has one of the best arms ever. Was he the fastest? No. Strongest arm? Up there, but arguably not, but arguably so. Smartest? No. But he was elite at all of those things.
Imagine him with Pederson, or Payton, or McVey, or Shanahan eight years earlier. He wouldn't even need to be in ideal situations. Swap Elway for Stafford (when that offensive talent/scheme wasn't a train wreck) or FFS, Elway on the Niners when they had a great defense and good all around offensive pieces.
It's just a different league with more opportunities for QB's.
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