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Thread: Mlb 2019

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazoe60 View Post
    I wonder if technology and training methods have helped people figure out how to maximize velocity but at the cost of arm injuries and longevity. Nolan Ryan had some games where he threw 200 pitches. Now-a-days it's extremely rare to see a guy throw 100 pitches. Part of it is the monetary investment in these guys makes clubs extremely careful with how they use them. I also wonder how much of it is that seemingly every starting pitcher throws 95+ now.
    Plus, scouts are more focused on pure velocity. Did you watch Tom Glavine pitch? Or going back furth, Mike Cuellar? Those guys couldn't break a pane of glass, but they would make batters look like Special Olympians with location, movement, and off speed stuff. Most fun pitcher I remember watching was Charlie Hough, a knuckleballer who would get guys tied up in knots...or get clubbed like a baby seal if the knuckler wasn't working that day. These guys could pitch a ton of innings without getting tired, and go on for decades - see also, the Niekro brothers.

    I wonder if a lot of potentially effective pitchers never get the shot because their fastball barely breaks 90
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  3. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Plus, scouts are more focused on pure velocity. Did you watch Tom Glavine pitch? Or going back furth, Mike Cuellar? Those guys couldn't break a pane of glass, but they would make batters look like Special Olympians with location, movement, and off speed stuff. Most fun pitcher I remember watching was Charlie Hough, a knuckleballer who would get guys tied up in knots...or get clubbed like a baby seal if the knuckler wasn't working that day. These guys could pitch a ton of innings without getting tired, and go on for decades - see also, the Niekro brothers.

    I wonder if a lot of potentially effective pitchers never get the shot because their fastball barely breaks 90
    The best example of that of all time was Greg Maddux. Look up Greg Maddux 3-0 count stat. It's unbelievable.

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  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazoe60 View Post
    The best example of that of all time was Greg Maddux. Look up Greg Maddux 3-0 count stat. It's unbelievable.
    Yes - perfect. I think I got Glavine mixed up w/ Maddux
    "A man who picks a cat up by the tail learns something which he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain

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  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeHoof View Post
    I despise the DH because it's like Managing For Dummies - write out 10 names and then sit on your ass the rest of the night.

    If the two leagues need to have a unified rule regarding the DH, the best idea I've heard is to tie the DH to the starting pitcher. If you take out one, you take out the other. This allows the game to start like an AL game and end like an NL game with all the late inning strategy but without the pitcher hitting in the early innings so (God forbid) DH fans won't bitch about watching pitchers strike out when a well-paid aging slugger can strike out instead. This rule adds strategy rather than subtracting from it - do you keep that pitcher in longer so the DH gets up the next inning? Do you bat the DH lower in the lineup so your replacement isn't stuck in the heart of the lineup?

    The starting pitchers will never hit and the relievers will only hit when a double-switch or a pinch-hitter isn't needed. Honestly, you'll rarely see it unless a bunt is needed or it goes deep into extra innings. The DH stays in the sport but their role is diminished so fielding-inept players like David Ortiz have less value than a guy who can actually play defense.
    I guess I'd rather see a non-fielding David Ortiz at the plate than a Gold Glover, like say...Nick Ahmed...who has a career OPS under .650. Just my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Plus, scouts are more focused on pure velocity. Did you watch Tom Glavine pitch? Or going back furth, Mike Cuellar? Those guys couldn't break a pane of glass, but they would make batters look like Special Olympians with location, movement, and off speed stuff. Most fun pitcher I remember watching was Charlie Hough, a knuckleballer who would get guys tied up in knots...or get clubbed like a baby seal if the knuckler wasn't working that day. These guys could pitch a ton of innings without getting tired, and go on for decades - see also, the Niekro brothers.

    I wonder if a lot of potentially effective pitchers never get the shot because their fastball barely breaks 90
    Add Bob Tewksbury to that list. No velocity, but amazing location and control.

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  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Plus, scouts are more focused on pure velocity. Did you watch Tom Glavine pitch? Or going back furth, Mike Cuellar? Those guys couldn't break a pane of glass, but they would make batters look like Special Olympians with location, movement, and off speed stuff. Most fun pitcher I remember watching was Charlie Hough, a knuckleballer who would get guys tied up in knots...or get clubbed like a baby seal if the knuckler wasn't working that day. These guys could pitch a ton of innings without getting tired, and go on for decades - see also, the Niekro brothers.

    I wonder if a lot of potentially effective pitchers never get the shot because their fastball barely breaks 90
    Scouts seem to live and die by the JUGS gun although the best pitcher in the last quarter-century was Greg Maddux who won because of his unreal control. The most amusing pitcher I've ever seen (other than Verditte, the ambidextrous pitcher) was Doug Jones whose change up was so slow that batters would double- and triple-clutch waiting for the pitch to cross the plate. The bigger the slugger, the worst they flailed. I doubt Jones would even make a roster today even though he became an All-Star.

    I hear all this groupthink about not going more than 100 pitches so you now have teams that just wait out the starting pitcher so they can feast on the bullpen where they'll trot out someone who throws 100-mph but can't get the ball over the plate. I can't even remember the name of that Met pitcher who regularly topped 100-mph but he couldn't throw a strike to save his life.

    Another item I never hear discussed is that the rise in MRIs discover arm injuries that pitchers used to just work through because they felt a "tired arm". The irony is that there is more time on the DL today than there was before all these low pitch counts and medical advancements supposedly *saved* pitchers from the scrap heap.
    I miss the old Mile High Stadium.

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  11. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought View Post
    Plus, scouts are more focused on pure velocity. Did you watch Tom Glavine pitch? Or going back furth, Mike Cuellar? Those guys couldn't break a pane of glass, but they would make batters look like Special Olympians with location, movement, and off speed stuff. Most fun pitcher I remember watching was Charlie Hough, a knuckleballer who would get guys tied up in knots...or get clubbed like a baby seal if the knuckler wasn't working that day. These guys could pitch a ton of innings without getting tired, and go on for decades - see also, the Niekro brothers.

    I wonder if a lot of potentially effective pitchers never get the shot because their fastball barely breaks 90
    I would argue that Glavine and Maddox would have every bit the same career today that they had 25 years ago, their velocity would just be up a few mph.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    The average game time in the AL is 15 seconds shorter.
    I see. What about the other point? You don't think changing pitchers after every out slows down the game?
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  13. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by slim View Post
    I see. What about the other point? You don't think changing pitchers after every out slows down the game?
    It does. Anecdotally I’d say there are, by far, more pitching changes in the National League than the American League (I’d have to see if there’s numbers on that) and the game time is about the same.

    I think any legitimate attempt to shorten games has to be in time between pitches, rather than in between batters/pitchers.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
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  14. #25
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    I think it's time to go to a universal DH. I despise bunting and taking a crap hitter out of the lineup seems objectively good from a fan's perspective.

    I'm kind of indifferent on the 3 batter rule - on one hand it will speed up the game, OTOH I kind of appreciate the strategy that goes into deciding if and when to use your bullpen. There would be tradeoffs either way. From a statistical perspective, I've always thought it's a bit silly that a guy can come in and throw 1 pitch and get a save or a hold, so at least this would make them earn it.

    ...

    It looks like there will be another work stoppage between 2021-2022... Something needs to give on the CBA. The owners are obviously colluding to try and tamp down the free agent market on the top end... But I can hardly blame them when you look at the Pujols, Fielder and Cabrera deals... For instance - Nolan Arenado could very well be the best 3B of all time, and even I have my doubts about signing him to a 8-10 year deal at $25mil+ per year when he'll be over 30 for the bulk of the deal. Seems like they ought to have something more akin to the NBA where there is a specified max deal.

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  16. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    I think it's time to go to a universal DH. I despise bunting and taking a crap hitter out of the lineup seems objectively good from a fan's perspective.

    I'm kind of indifferent on the 3 batter rule - on one hand it will speed up the game, OTOH I kind of appreciate the strategy that goes into deciding if and when to use your bullpen. There would be tradeoffs either way. From a statistical perspective, I've always thought it's a bit silly that a guy can come in and throw 1 pitch and get a save or a hold, so at least this would make them earn it.

    ...

    It looks like there will be another work stoppage between 2021-2022... Something needs to give on the CBA. The owners are obviously colluding to try and tamp down the free agent market on the top end... But I can hardly blame them when you look at the Pujols, Fielder and Cabrera deals... For instance - Nolan Arenado could very well be the best 3B of all time, and even I have my doubts about signing him to a 8-10 year deal at $25mil+ per year when he'll be over 30 for the bulk of the deal. Seems like they ought to have something more akin to the NBA where there is a specified max deal.
    I think MLB needs a salary cap. I also think it needs a salary floor.

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  18. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    I think it's time to go to a universal DH. I despise bunting and taking a crap hitter out of the lineup seems objectively good from a fan's perspective.

    I'm kind of indifferent on the 3 batter rule - on one hand it will speed up the game, OTOH I kind of appreciate the strategy that goes into deciding if and when to use your bullpen. There would be tradeoffs either way. From a statistical perspective, I've always thought it's a bit silly that a guy can come in and throw 1 pitch and get a save or a hold, so at least this would make them earn it.

    ...

    It looks like there will be another work stoppage between 2021-2022... Something needs to give on the CBA. The owners are obviously colluding to try and tamp down the free agent market on the top end... But I can hardly blame them when you look at the Pujols, Fielder and Cabrera deals... For instance - Nolan Arenado could very well be the best 3B of all time, and even I have my doubts about signing him to a 8-10 year deal at $25mil+ per year when he'll be over 30 for the bulk of the deal. Seems like they ought to have something more akin to the NBA where there is a specified max deal.
    The 6 years of initial player control might be up for discussion. Three years of arbitration is excessive. You take a 22 year old rookie (and that’s pretty young), he’s not hitting free agency until 28 and he’s not making market value until he’s 25, and that’s if he doesn’t sign a usually-team friendly contract at under-market value to avoid arbitration.

    I don’t, however, know what chip the players have to play to be able to negotiate that six years down to four or five. Maybe lose arbitration in year four in exchange for mutual-option year five and free agency year six?
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    I love the Shitgun.

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  20. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    The 6 years of initial player control might be up for discussion. Three years of arbitration is excessive. You take a 22 year old rookie (and that’s pretty young), he’s not hitting free agency until 28 and he’s not making market value until he’s 25, and that’s if he doesn’t sign a usually-team friendly contract at under-market value to avoid arbitration.

    I don’t, however, know what chip the players have to play to be able to negotiate that six years down to four or five. Maybe lose arbitration in year four in exchange for mutual-option year five and free agency year six?
    Most definitely owners will have to give up some control on the front end in order to manage the deals on the back end... Which seems reasonable - and it seems like there is a model out there if you look at the NBA or NFL. The MLB model feels broken.

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    I read these stories and it seems like every option is what the union wants. What do the owners get? Other than a shorter game (eh, fewer ads between innings would solve that), where's their benefit? Reducing the years of club control is a great deal if you're the Yankees or Dodgers. It's damaging to the Royals, Pirates, Marlins, Padres and other small-market teams.
    I miss the old Mile High Stadium.

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    I think the relief pitcher rule would be pretty lame. I’m all for a universal DH.

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