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Thread: Chris Harris hopes Broncos don’t draft a QB at No. 5

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBRONC View Post
    Chris is a great corner and he's entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But where I think King has point is that the defensive personnel like Chris thought Siemian was answer and they were mistaken. Chris is no more expert on best move for the Broncos is than we are. Beside, there is portion of our members who wrote off season 2018 season shortly after the end 2017 season. Does not matter what Elway does many won't be happy anyway. If what Elway does coincides with Harris' opinion great, if it doesn't that's the way it goes.
    I don't recall CHJ or any other player banging the table for Siemian. They might have
    favored him, but they weren't taking polls. And just because we think they might have been
    wrong about Siemian does not make us as knowledgeable as they in football. We're not.
    They study and play the game. They play against quarterbacks. They know them far better
    than we do.

    I know it's fashionable to trash Siemian right now. He has taken the place of Orton, who took
    the place of Plummer, who took the place of Griese, and so on. We seem to need somebody
    for this. But not everyone shares the opinion some here have of Siemian. After all, one team
    gave up an asset, a draft selection, for him.

    So we can have our opinions on whether Siemian was just a bad QB, and how bad he might
    be. But we can't justly use him to demonstrate how CHJ and others don't know how to
    evaluate talent.
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
    But they weren't wrong. PL has been worse at every point.
    You're look at it incorrectly - it's not about what happened as it is the odds of what will happen. There was damn near a zero percent chance TS was ever going to be good. He didn't have great intellect (people said he did because he went to Northwestern, well Ray Lewis was a brilliant football player and dumber than a bowl of hair), he had a horrible arm, he had no durability, etc. He was subpar across the board except he had some mobility to him. Whereas PL at least had the ability, more than a zero percent chance to be good.

    Not going with the guy who could be good is okay if the other guy is decent or better. TS wasn't. And everyone but GK knew it. So, take the next logical step forward - if you have someone who is pure talent but nothing else and the other guy is nothing at all, who do you go with? You go with the guy who can actually POTENTIALLY turn into something. It wasn't like they benched PL for an average starter when the defense was still strong. They put out a guy that was lucky to be drafted. I used to count the overthrows when he'd put everything he physically had into a throw, and the underthrows. People got pissy with me, but it was to prove a point.

    The facts told people, or should have told people, that TS was damn near a 100% goner from day one. But people want to be optimistic and not shit on a season before it's barely started, I get it. And PL's facts told us that he could at least have a chance to pan out. But what are those facts? Look at everything that went into drafting him. Facts aren't determinative in many settings. Reasonable people can disagree, so when people lay out the facts for Brady as GOAT, and another does Elway or Manning, it's an informed opinion, based on facts. At the same, it's a fact that one plus one equals two.

    That's why I laugh so hard at people telling me I don't have facts or use them. Because, the facts said that TS had a better completion than a lot of QB's for that same time - and that's true. It was also a FACT that many of those QB's played in different eras where passing numbers were lower.

    I saw all of that for a reason - full circle - it was the wrong choice to go with TS. It was the wrong choice long term, and it was the wrong choice short term because those teams weren't playoff teams. It was a reach two years to think playoffs, and the defense had to win games for us off of turnovers to accidentally get to nine wins.

    TL;DR for you - both political scientists and actuaries are factually based 'workers' and yet Poli Sci is the better 'way of thinking' for NFL than an actuary. Or you could put mathematician.

    Oh, and last season when we clearly sucked heading into the season, there was no reason for TS to be the starter - the defense was even less than what it was, and you had a guy who was a legitimate talent on the bench.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    You're look at it incorrectly - it's not about what happened as it is the odds of what will happen. There was damn near a zero percent chance TS was ever going to be good. He didn't have great intellect (people said he did because he went to Northwestern, well Ray Lewis was a brilliant football player and dumber than a bowl of hair), he had a horrible arm, he had no durability, etc. He was subpar across the board except he had some mobility to him. Whereas PL at least had the ability, more than a zero percent chance to be good.

    Not going with the guy who could be good is okay if the other guy is decent or better. TS wasn't. And everyone but GK knew it. So, take the next logical step forward - if you have someone who is pure talent but nothing else and the other guy is nothing at all, who do you go with? You go with the guy who can actually POTENTIALLY turn into something. It wasn't like they benched PL for an average starter when the defense was still strong. They put out a guy that was lucky to be drafted. I used to count the overthrows when he'd put everything he physically had into a throw, and the underthrows. People got pissy with me, but it was to prove a point.

    The facts told people, or should have told people, that TS was damn near a 100% goner from day one. But people want to be optimistic and not shit on a season before it's barely started, I get it. And PL's facts told us that he could at least have a chance to pan out. But what are those facts? Look at everything that went into drafting him. Facts aren't determinative in many settings. Reasonable people can disagree, so when people lay out the facts for Brady as GOAT, and another does Elway or Manning, it's an informed opinion, based on facts. At the same, it's a fact that one plus one equals two.

    That's why I laugh so hard at people telling me I don't have facts or use them. Because, the facts said that TS had a better completion than a lot of QB's for that same time - and that's true. It was also a FACT that many of those QB's played in different eras where passing numbers were lower.

    I saw all of that for a reason - full circle - it was the wrong choice to go with TS. It was the wrong choice long term, and it was the wrong choice short term because those teams weren't playoff teams. It was a reach two years to think playoffs, and the defense had to win games for us off of turnovers to accidentally get to nine wins.

    TL;DR for you - both political scientists and actuaries are factually based 'workers' and yet Poli Sci is the better 'way of thinking' for NFL than an actuary. Or you could put mathematician.

    Oh, and last season when we clearly sucked heading into the season, there was no reason for TS to be the starter - the defense was even less than what it was, and you had a guy who was a legitimate talent on the bench.
    Kinger believes in Lynch. Lynch sucks. The end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    I don't recall CHJ or any other player banging the table for Siemian. They might have
    favored him, but they weren't taking polls. And just because we think they might have been
    wrong about Siemian does not make us as knowledgeable as they in football. We're not.
    They study and play the game. They play against quarterbacks. They know them far better
    than we do.

    I know it's fashionable to trash Siemian right now. He has taken the place of Orton, who took
    the place of Plummer, who took the place of Griese, and so on. We seem to need somebody
    for this. But not everyone shares the opinion some here have of Siemian. After all, one team
    gave up an asset, a draft selection, for him.

    So we can have our opinions on whether Siemian was just a bad QB, and how bad he might
    be. But we can't justly use him to demonstrate how CHJ and others don't know how to
    evaluate talent.
    It’s literally common knowledge that the defensive players wanted TS to start.
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    Draft
    1st round— Cooper Dejean CB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    It’s literally common knowledge that the defensive players wanted TS to start.
    That's what I said.
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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    Just a reminder, Lynch was thought to be a two to three year project when he was drafted and he’s played four games in two years.

    We simply don’t know for sure yet that Lynch “sucks.” I don’t think Elway knows for sure either which is why he brought in another bridge QB. I also don’t believe he’ll draft a QB early because he thinks he may already have the QBOTF on the roster. Is Lynch bad? Maybe, but four games isn’t enough to say for sure.
    “If there are no animals in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.” - Will Rogers (paraphrased)

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    In Lynch's 3rd yr, he will have to show significant improvement. So far, he's always injured, plays like shit when his number is called, questionable work ethic, and couldn't beat out a 7th rd pick who wasn't even considered a hopeful project. So the lack of playing time is on Paxton Lynch's lack of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
    You are too upset about all this. My point is that you are making statements in hindsight that ignore the reality of all the points along the way. TS was the better QB at each point in time. Your central idea is that the Broncos should have just thrown in the towel for two years to see what PL has. Easy to say looking backwards.
    Not really.

    The problem for Broncos since Manning's retirement is their inability to take the QB position seriously. Even though i think CK is average at least they actually tried to address it properly this year. But when you keep taking project Qbs in the first round thats problematic. Not only are you wasting the pick when he has no real Qb in front of him to learn from but you waste a pick that you could of used on a real difference maker for the team. I know its difficult to get a good QB at the bottom of the draft but you certainly dont waste it on a project. You say its easy to say looking backwards but the problem is a lot of us have been saying this before now, so its not really revisionists history when you've been beating the drum for over 2 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    In Lynch's 3rd yr, he will have to show significant improvement. So far, he's always injured, plays like shit when his number is called, questionable work ethic, and couldn't beat out a 7th rd pick who wasn't even considered a hopeful project. So the lack of playing time is on Paxton Lynch's lack of.
    But can he? He's not the starter and unless CK gets destroyed i dont think we will see Lynch at all next year during the regular season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    But can he? He's not the starter and unless CK gets destroyed i dont think we will see Lynch at all next year during the regular season.
    If his number is called, I do expect him to play better than last year. He should know the playbook better, watched film on what he's done wrong, improved on those wrongs, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
    You are too upset about all this. My point is that you are making statements in hindsight that ignore the reality of all the points along the way. TS was the better QB at each point in time. Your central idea is that the Broncos should have just thrown in the towel for two years to see what PL has. Easy to say looking backwards.
    Not really.

    The problem for Broncos since Manning's retirement is their inability to take the QB position seriously. Even though i think CK is average at least they actually tried to address it properly this year. But when you keep taking project Qbs in the first round thats problematic. Not only are you wasting the pick when he has no real Qb in front of him to learn from but you waste a pick that you could of used on a real difference maker for the team. I know its difficult to get a good QB at the bottom of the draft but you certainly dont waste it on a project. You say its easy to say looking backwards but the problem is a lot of us have been saying this before now, so its not really revisionists history when you've been beating the drum for over 2 years.
    The problem is that Elway and Co. thought they had their guy in Oz though. That didn't work out really did it. Then he became Option B again in Year 2 Post-Manning, and he still wasnt going to be The Guy anyway. Oz was always the contingency plan but... he'll never be a starter in this League.

    This happened in a different way, but i fully expected it, and most here did too. You just dont lose a player like PM and not be set back a few years.
    "I may not be a mathematician, but I can count to a million." - Shannon Sharpe

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    I don't recall CHJ or any other player banging the table for Siemian. They might have
    favored him, but they weren't taking polls. And just because we think they might have been
    wrong about Siemian does not make us as knowledgeable as they in football. We're not.
    They study and play the game. They play against quarterbacks. They know them far better
    than we do.

    I know it's fashionable to trash Siemian right now. He has taken the place of Orton, who took
    the place of Plummer, who took the place of Griese, and so on. We seem to need somebody
    for this. But not everyone shares the opinion some here have of Siemian. After all, one team
    gave up an asset, a draft selection, for him.

    So we can have our opinions on whether Siemian was just a bad QB, and how bad he might
    be. But we can't justly use him to demonstrate how CHJ and others don't know how to
    evaluate talent.
    Then I guess it's good thing I didn't say Chris or anyone else was pounding the table for Siemian. It is however a well-known fact defense wanted him start. Last time I check Harris gets paid to play corner back not evaluate talent. As I said he has a right to his opinion but that is all is. Yes we can justly use Siemian as example of how Chris was mistaken.

    Lets not overplay what the Vikings gave up in trade for Siemian it's not like they gave up a 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd pick for the guy. They also went and paid a boat load for Kirk Cousins to be their starting quarterback. So it's a little disingenuous because the Vikings didn't give high round to get him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikerman View Post
    Just a reminder, Lynch was thought to be a two to three year project when he was drafted and he’s played four games in two years.

    We simply don’t know for sure yet that Lynch “sucks.” I don’t think Elway knows for sure either which is why he brought in another bridge QB. I also don’t believe he’ll draft a QB early because he thinks he may already have the QBOTF on the roster. Is Lynch bad? Maybe, but four games isn’t enough to say for sure.
    He sucks for sure. As of now.

    Hopefully he gets a lot better in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting
    "You know cos I just lost my parents--both my parents died in the same year...to this day, people come up to me and say 'my dad died and that album really meant a lot to me,' which is very nourishing {pats heart} for a songwriter to hear that your songs have a utility beyond just their own solace, that it actually helps other people."

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    Players who produced a 5-11 record sure do have room to publicly voice their opinion on how draft picks are spent...

    Frankly, when asked about who their team should take in the draft, players should say shit like, “It’s not up to me. What is up to me is my play on the field and obviously I need to improve on that and help my teammates improve after a 5-11 season.”

    CHJ, and I love the guy, has the luxury of being able to play for and plan for right now, this year, this moment. Drafts aren’t built that way. If you’re counting on a draft pick/rookie to come in and save or greatly improve your team the first year, you’re ******* up. FA is for right now, drafts are for the next 4-5 years. Rookies aren’t there to “get you over the hump”.
    Last edited by HORSEPOWER 56; 04-25-2018 at 10:10 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56 View Post
    Players who produced a 5-11 record sure do have room to voice their opinion on how draft picks are spent...

    Frankly, when asked about who their team should take in the draft, players should say shit like, “It’s not up to me. What is up to me is my play on the field and obviously I need to improve on that and help my teammates improve after a 5-11 season.”

    CHJ, and I love the guy, has the luxury of being able to play for and plan for right now, this year, this moment. Drafts aren’t built that way. If you’re counting on a draft pick/rookie to come in and save or greatly improve your team the first year, you’re ******* up. FA is for right now, drafts are for the next 4-5 years. Rookies aren’t there to “get you over the hump”.
    Tell that to New Orleans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting
    "You know cos I just lost my parents--both my parents died in the same year...to this day, people come up to me and say 'my dad died and that album really meant a lot to me,' which is very nourishing {pats heart} for a songwriter to hear that your songs have a utility beyond just their own solace, that it actually helps other people."

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