Thread: 6.5 yards...

Originally Posted by topscribe

He should not have conceded defeat, IMO. Trevor was beaten to death, and his confidence
was crushed as a result. I have seen this happen to more than one young, inexperienced
QB over my 50+ years of football.

Your optimism is astound, Top.

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

I think you missed my edit above. I’m sorry for choosing my words poorly.

This is actually Jaded's fault.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Keenum had the #1 QBR under pressure. Brady had the #2. Now, you can argue with those
facts if you want, but you are not going to change the facts by lauding Brady as G.O.A.T.

And the Vikings were "loaded" on defense. On offense, not so much, although still good at
WR and TE. But the line was found wanting, and the RBs were "average" after the injury
to Dalvin Cook. (His 4.8 Y/A fell to 3.9 after his injury, and the 3.9 was for the entire year,
so it was padded by his numbers.) So I maintain, backed by this documentation, that the
Vikings offense was not as "loaded" as popularly conceived, at least on this board.

The Vikings had an average offensive line, a solid TE, and a WR Corp that is considered to be one of the best in the league. Their defense is brutal. I literally googled best NFL rosters and the Vikings were sitting in just about everyone's top five. I'm sorry if you think the talent around CK didn't impact him, but it very obviously did.

You can continue to compare CK to Brady (I'm sorry I misread and had Brady at one and CK at two) but I'm not disputing the fact. I'm disputing how much weight you put into it and act like it proves something. You wanna know why QBR is generally a worthless stat? I'll give you a hint -if you look atop the lists every year you're going to see some QB's who were very efficient while putting up monster numbers, some second tier (still very good QBs) on the list, and then you'll see guys with overall average production like Alex Smith and Dak Prescott on the lists. Most modern iterations have efficiency ratings built in, which favor QB's who are actually being asked to do less.

Every single season we see QB's hit high QBR's in various contexts while not actually being big time QB's. It's partially because of the era. It's partially because of how the stats are weighed.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

The Vikings had an average offensive line, a solid TE, and a WR Corp that is considered to be one of the best in the league. Their defense is brutal. I literally googled best NFL rosters and the Vikings were sitting in just about everyone's top five. I'm sorry if you think the talent around CK didn't impact him, but it very obviously did.

You can continue to compare CK to Brady (I'm sorry I misread and had Brady at one and CK at two) but I'm not disputing the fact. I'm disputing how much weight you put into it and act like it proves something. You wanna know why QBR is generally a worthless stat? I'll give you a hint -if you look atop the lists every year you're going to see some QB's who were very efficient while putting up monster numbers, some second tier (still very good QBs) on the list, and then you'll see guys with overall average production like Alex Smith and Dak Prescott on the lists. Most modern iterations have efficiency ratings built in, which favor QB's who are actually being asked to do less.

Every single season we see QB's hit high QBR's in various contexts while not actually being big time QB's. It's partially because of the era. It's partially because of how the stats are weighed.

You see, you say I am comparing Keenum to Brady, whereas I was just reporting the QBR.
I showed the FACTS concerning Keenum being the 3rd most pressured QB in the league.
You cannot argue that that is not on the offensive line.

You can argue against the facts until the cows come home, but you cannot alter the facts,
despite whatever hypothetical argument you present. Keenum was what he was last year,
and the numbers show he was among the best in the league. Despite your spin.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

Your optimism is astound, Top.

It's not optimism. I'm not a fan of Trevor's any more than I am of Aaron Rodgers or Tom
Brady or Phillip Rivers, if you know what I mean. I just try to look below the surface and
look beyond the "whats" to discover the "why's." There is a reason for everything. I'm a
deep thinker, and that tends to cause differences with those who don't appear to think so
deeply.

Yeah, I'm the one who is spinning? It's okay, Top. We've seen this before - you dumped out every last argument you could for Orton, and then when he bombed it was because he was injured. Then, when he went to Dallas and was healthy and played due to Romo's injury, it didn't matter that he sucked. When Cutler was drafted you thought he was the bee's knees. Then, when TS started, you raved about him, even though he was bad for two years, you still think he can be good. You get emotional attachments to players and you're a homer. That's fine.

But when you cling to things like QBR rating, and the people (and you know it to) understand how those ratings work, we don't ignore the fact that guys with game manager productions have higher, or congruent, ratings with some of the absolute best in the league. And in general, when you have to pimp something as obscure as 'best under pressure,' while completing ignoring the great team around CK (imagine if that defense wasn't so great at stopping the other team, improving field position, and letting the Vikings run the ball to set up the QB play despite the run game's poor production) it's a bit of a joke.

Originally Posted by topscribe

It's not optimism. I'm not a fan of Trevor's any more than I am of Aaron Rodgers or Tom
Brady or Phillip Rivers, if you know what I mean. I just try to look below the surface and
look beyond the "whats" to discover the "why's." There is a reason for everything. I'm a
deep thinker, and that tends to cause differences with those who don't appear to think so
deeply.

You don't think deeper than anyone else and the implication that you do is astounding - last offseason I tore apart the numbers that 'supported' TS because they were being compared to QB's from the early 2000's when the rules were different. That's actually looking deeper. I'm going to put you on ignore now, because your ego is crazy, and you're unfortunately bordering on sophistry. I like you much as a person, but this is just sad to see. I wish you well.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

Yeah, I'm the one who is spinning? It's okay, Top. We've seen this before - you dumped out every last argument you could for Orton, and then when he bombed it was because he was injured. Then, when he went to Dallas and was healthy and played due to Romo's injury, it didn't matter that he sucked. When Cutler was drafted you thought he was the bee's knees. Then, when TS started, you raved about him, even though he was bad for two years, you still think he can be good. You get emotional attachments to players and you're a homer. That's fine.

But when you cling to things like QBR rating, and the people (and you know it to) understand how those ratings work, we don't ignore the fact that guys with game manager productions have higher, or congruent, ratings with some of the absolute best in the league. And in general, when you have to pimp something as obscure as 'best under pressure,' while completing ignoring the great team around CK (imagine if that defense wasn't so great at stopping the other team, improving field position, and letting the Vikings run the ball to set up the QB play despite the run game's poor production) it's a bit of a joke.

So now it's Orton. Who's next? Tebow? So you think you have an argument against Keenum
by bringing up Orton? I was always right concerning Orton, and I don't change my argument.
His worst fault was weak ankles. I already revealed his stellar production when healthy.

So let's get past your attempted distraction and get back to Keenum. And, yes, I cling to the
FACTS. That is exactly right. You cling to your uninformed imagination because you believe
what you want to believe. And then you absolutely misrepresent what I have said, and I
wonder whether that is intentional--after all, you're trying to become a lawyer.

So I present facts, and you present spin and hypotheses. And you still think you're right. And
then you come back and denigrate my stand on the facts. It won't work, King . . .

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

This is actually Jaded's fault.

Well, yeah...

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

Well, yeah...

He runs the show now.

Why in the name of hell would a fan of the Broncos condemn their new QB who hasnt even thrown the ball yet, i do not know. Its like games werent even watched last year.

Originally Posted by Shazam!

Why in the name of hell would a fan of the Broncos condemn their new QB who hasnt even thrown the ball yet, i do not know. Its like games werent even watched last year.

The people who weren't or are not high on CK tended to be the ones who saw the (obvious) light regarding TS very early. Why would I celebrate a contract with a game manager QB, especially when this draft has several legitimate first round prospects?

I have a wonderful TS jersey from China 2X if anyone wants it. Its really nice.

Originally Posted by Shazam!

I have a wonderful TS jersey from China 2X if anyone wants it. Its really nice.

Burn it.

Originally Posted by Shazam!

Why in the name of hell would a fan of the Broncos condemn their new QB who hasnt even thrown the ball yet, i do not know. Its like games werent even watched last year.

I guess I’m not a fan, I can live with that.



We’ve seen him throw a football since high school.

It’s like CK games weren’t watched UNTIL last year.