Thread: Is Keenum That Good Or Was Jeff Fisher Just That Bad?

Originally Posted by underrated29

If we cant get rosen I want chubb, bad!!! and then Soney Michel in rd 2....or even late rd 1.

For me, as it is now. If Rosen is gone, we move down with Buffalo and well, see my sig for the rest. Thats my ideal unless Rosen is there.

If Denver can aquire Michel and Kizer my life would be set.

Originally Posted by underrated29

I disagree about Rosen. I think he will be really good.

I'd be ok with Rosen, but if I had a choice between Rosen and Barkley, I'd take Barkley every time.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

I'd be ok with Rosen, but if I had a choice between Rosen and Barkley, I'd take Barkley every time.

Indeed. Barkley would make a difference from day one. And Keenum would need all the help he could get anyway.

Originally Posted by Northman

Indeed. Barkley would make a difference from day one. And Keenum would need all the help he could get anyway.

If we get Barkley, I don't care who our QB is for the next 5 years, he'll be our offense lol. QB just had to be capable of handing it off.

Barkley is an AP or LT level player.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

I'd be ok with Rosen, but if I had a choice between Rosen and Barkley, I'd take Barkley every time.

I hope against hope Barkley's there. But I'm afraid of what NYG or Cleveland is going to do.

Originally Posted by topscribe

I hope against hope Barkley's there. But I'm afraid of what NYG or Cleveland is going to do.

I think Giants take a QB. I'm not sold that they are going to give Eli much more time.

Cleveland will likely take a QB first overall, then draft a defender. It's possible they take Barkley. I think it's also possible someone will trade into pick 4 and take whatever QB is left.

I think a lot of us agree that we should take Barkley. But would you be willing to trade up to 2 in order to get him?

I think that is the only way we get him. He is a can't miss for the browns at 4.

Nope. Do not want him that badly. I like him, but I do not see an emormous difference between he and Michel for ex....or even a rashad penny. I do see one, just not that big to warrant moving up for.

Originally Posted by Cugel

You do need a franchise QB, I'm just not convinced there even is one in this draft and if there is, the Broncos may simply not be in position to draft him anyway at #5. What if Josh Rosen is the next Carson Wentz and he's gone to the Giants at #2? Then the Broncos take Baker Mayfield at #5 and he's NOT the guy?

These QBs leave me cold. I'm not posing as a draft expert either, it's that all the experts are all over the place. Usually there's some consensus "this guy #1, this guy #2, this guy #3 Prospect". Not this year.

Lots of mock drafts have Cleveland taking Barkely #1 overall or Chubb, because none of the QBs stand out. Yet we know from history that it's wildly unlikely that all of these guys are going to be stars in the league! The thought that nags me is "what if NONE of them are really great?"

If Elway makes yet another blunder at drafting a Qb that will be a disaster for the team. He's betting his career on this move! (Not to mention that VJ will also be fired).

Plus, they have made ZERO moves in FA to get a T and a starting RG, which is the prerequisite for drafting a QB at #5. They are going into the draft AGAIN! desperately needing a T and a G to upgrade their OL.

My position is: even if the Broncos had Tom Brady this season, they aren't winning the SB this year. That means it's a 3 year rebuilding process. They could take a QB in the second round to develop, dump Paxton, develop Kelly and see if he's worth spit, and strengthen the rest of the team. And hope that Case Keenum continues to play like the top 12 QB he was last year.

#12 in passing yards
#8 in QBR (98.3)
#12 in TDs
#6 in INTs among active starters
#2 behind Drew Brees in completion % (ahead of Brady, Stafford, Ryan, Alex Smith)

These are the stats of a VERY good, but not elite QB. So, critics say things like "he was playing with a great Vikings team and that inflated his stats!" or "He's a one-year wonder" (how do they know?)

People are looking at his career with Jeff Fisher and the Rams, but Foles totally sucked under Fisher, and now is SB MVP, while Goff looked like the worst top 5 QB draft pick since JaMarcus Russell, and suddenly, freed of Fisher for 1 season, suddenly explodes for 28 TDs, 7 Ints, and 3800 yards (#5 in the NFL). I'm not saying Keenum is as good as Goff, but he certainly is better than people are giving him credit for being.

The Broncos need to strengthen their talent dramatically, and they need that #1 pick to do it, whether they take Nelson or Cubb at #5 or trade back and stockpile picks and get a T like McGlinchy or Connor Williams or somebody. Then they get another impact player with another first round pick.

You can say that about any quarterback. What if it is Rosen that's available Denver takes him and he's dud? If I may, I've heard that Allen is similar to Wentz fwiw.

If these guys leave you cold, I respect that. We've said many times have sustain success and getting a Super Bowl, let alone winning it is more like with a franchise quarterback.

The Broncos will do they're going to do. I'm just going to sit back and watch what happens.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

If we get Barkley, I don't care who our QB is for the next 5 years, he'll be our offense lol. QB just had to be capable of handing it off.

Barkley is an AP or LT level player.

Even if Barkley is an AP or LT level player, neither is a good example of how to win championships. I'd love the selection if he's actually as good a football player as his combine scores indicate. It would be fun to watch a Barry Sanders 2.0 show. But more than a few analysts question his film. On the other hand, the Broncos line looks more suited to running than passing, and Keenum needs a legit run game to do his thing. He might be an important missing piece. But the idea of the RB savior doesn't find a lot of historical traction.

2006 LaDainian Tomlinson - 5.2 ypc, 1815y, 507 receiving, 31 TD, QB-Rivers (pro-bowl selection, 7.4 y/a), other RBs running behind same line: 502y, 6.3ypc

LT was a stud cornerstone of a 14-2 team with a great line and elite QB. Lost to NE despite being 1st seed and LT putting up 123 yds at 5.3 ypc, 64 receiving yards, and 2 TDs. Rivers, meanwhile, was what BB chose to shut down: 14 for 32, 0 TD, 1 Int, and in particular, to Gates and Vincent Jackson (104 yards on 15 targets, no TD).

2012 Adrian Peterson - 6.0 ypc, 2097y, 217 receiving, 12 TD, Christian Ponder as QB (2900 yds, 62%, 18TD, 12Int, 5.7y/a), other RBs running behind same line: 169y, 3.4ypc

AP carried his team to a 10-6 wild card spot and had replacement level QB play. The O-Line had a rookie Matt Kalil who made his first and only pro-bowl appearance, converted LT Charlie Johnson as LG who turned in a 6 AV season in his final year in the league, center John Sullivan, Brandon Fusco at RG, and 28 y/o RT Phil Loadholt in his final season, all average or below. The line was nothing special at all. AP carried this offense. Defense was average.

In the Vikings' one and done 24-10 playoff loss to the Packers (really 24-3 except for a garbage time TD), the Packers 'held' AP to 99yds on 22 carries and no scores. The Vikings' passing attack behind backup Joe Webb was ineffective (11 for 30, 180 yds, 1td/1int). AP could not by himself generate points against the league's #11 defense.

2009 CJ2K - 2,509 yards from scrimmage, 8-8 season. QB play was sordid, despite Vince Young earning a pro-bowl nod. Vince Young was 8-2 with 58%, 10TD/7Int, 6.8 y/a, Kerry Collins started the season 0-6 and was a worse QB statistically. Other RB was Lendale White and he sucked. OL was above average, studs at LT and C, average to slightly elsewhere.

CJ2K ran for 193 yards in a 0-59 loss to NE. Looks like BB doesn't prioritize shuting down elite RBs. Against the Chargers, with the playoffs on the line, CJ2K ran for 142 on 21 carries in a 42-17 loss.

2002 Priest Holmes - on pace for 2,000 rushing yards, 1,000 receiving yards before a game 14 horsecollar tackle from Broncos CB Tyrone Poole. Chiefs 8-8 season was a story of league's best offense and worst defense. Chief's OL was superior, but after Holmes was injured backup RB Mike Cloud gained 40 yards in two games (Chiefs went 1-1).

1977 Walter Payton - Carried a 3-5 Bears team to 9-5 on the back of the best 6-game performance by a RB in NFL history, but shut down by Landry's 13-2 championship team 37-7.

1984 Eric Dickerson - 2105y, 10-6, one and done in playoffs--decent defense and one-dimensional offense.

1998 Terrell Davis - SB Champs on the back of TD. Interestingly, TD was not the athletic diamond like many others--blistering 40 speed, 50g juke-knees like Sanders/Charles, mack truck 230lbs+ carriage--but he was a genius with blocks and could read the field and was as tough as they come (kind of the opposite of Barkley, an athletic dancer without toughness).

There are several other great seasons by RBs that didn't lead to much, and very few seasons where they do. They are there--Marshall Faulk (with a good QB), Shaun Alexander (with a good QB), Emmitt Smith (with a good QB). More often they are like CJ2K--racking up yards in 0-59 losses to teams that know how to nullify a team without a competent passing attack, or Barry Sanders--amazing player with a 1-5 playoff record who sucked up a billion dollars of cap space while teams that properly value RB spending actually win playoff games.

To me, drafting a RB in the first round is not supported by the evidence. This article does a better job of explaining it than I could:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...2017-nfl-draft

They are overpriced and have short lifespans. Pass on the shiny RB. Even if he's special, is that how you win championships in this era?

*yawn*

offseason smh

Hmm . . . I was kind of drinking the Barkley kool-aide. But you helped to bring me back
a bit toward my previous attitude about RBs. The RB class is particularly deep this year,
so why invest the #5 on one, even as illustrious as Barkley? Championships are generally
won in the lines . . .

Originally Posted by topscribe

I hope against hope Barkley's there. But I'm afraid of what NYG or Cleveland is going to do.

The Browns wanted to take Barkley at #1, but now that the Jets moved up to #3 they can't since the Jets want a QB. So, they take a QB, probably Darnold, at #1.

The Giants will be sorely tempted to simply take Barkley at #2 rather than a QB. They need a QB replacement for Eli, but not necessarily this year. They could build around him and hope he lasts another 3 years (he's 37).

Then the Jets take a QB, either Allen or Mayfield (I think Mayfield).

At 4 the Browns would then be tempted to trade with a team that wants Allen (or Mayfield). Presumably this would be the Bills or (just barely possible) the Cardinals. The Broncos could move up too, if they want Allen, but the consensus opinion seems to be that they will take the best player available, either Nelson, Chubb, or Fitzpatrick, OR else trade back and take a T and G or QB later in the first.

I think Cleveland always knew full well that NYG and/or Indy would be trading back. I don't think for a moment that NYJ at 3 effects their board even a little.

Barkley would give an offense “featuring” Case Keenum an actual identity, he’s the best player in the draft. People that don’t think CK would benefit greatly from an identity at RB are invited to go watch the sheer amount of play action and screens that Vikings dialed up. Barkley also ran a ton out of shotgun where CK has to be to survive.

This offense is going to be the epitome of smoke and mirrors.

Originally Posted by Jaded

Barkley would give an offense “featuring” Case Keenum an actual identity, he’s the best player in the draft. People that don’t think CK would benefit greatly from an identity at RB are invited to go watch the sheer amount of play action and screens that Vikings dialed up.

This offense is going to be the epitome of smoke and mirrors.

That’s an improvement over last year’s smoke only approach.