Thread: Is Keenum That Good Or Was Jeff Fisher Just That Bad?

Now that Keenum is the Broncos starting QB for 2018 it's worth looking at his career. Opinions vary, but this article is interesting. It makes the point that both Jared Goff and Case Keenum suddenly looked great in the season after they were no longer coached by Jeff Fisher.

Are Jared Goff and Case Keenum that good, or was coach Jeff Fisher a QB killer?

There wasn’t a term for when a coach’s poor game plans undermined the skills of his quarterback. Until now …

After 22 seasons as an NFL head coach, five leading the Los Angeles Rams, Jeff Fisher and his staff were fired last season. Like many failed staffs, Fisher’s crew probably convinced themselves that they would have succeeded if they had only found a decent quarterback. By bubble-wrapping their egos in that theory, most coaches enjoy peace of mind for many years. But poor Fisher wasn’t even afforded a year of self-delusion because Jared Goff and Case Keenum became very good NFL quarterbacks almost immediately after being freed from his tutelage.

This season, Goff is 8-3 as the Rams’ starter under the guidance of 31-year-old rookie head coach Sean McVay. Goff was 0-7 a season ago. Keenum ended up in Minnesota with the Vikings, where he assumed the starting role after Sam Bradford, another former Fisher quarterback, got hurt. Keenum has gone 7-2 for his new team. He went 4-5 with Fisher in 2016. But their records aren’t the only evidence of improvement. With a Total QBR of 18.3 last season, rookie Goff was being called the worst quarterback of all time. So far this season, his QBR is 55.2. That places him right at the league average, which is promising for a player in his second season, his first as a Week 1 starter. At the beginning of last season, Goff was deemed unfit to even be a backup by Fisher and crew. He was third on the depth chart.

. . . . .

The Vikings are Keenum’s third team in his five-year career. The first two seasons he spent in Houston, where his QBR was 48.6 and 39.3. Then he went to Fisher’s Rams for a couple of seasons, where he had the two lowest QBRs of his career (34.8 and 37.5).

To be fair to Fisher, he is a defensive-minded coach, so maybe the quarterback failures are not a result of his poor game plans. But hiring a complementary staff is one of the chief responsibilities of a head coach. And Fisher went through three offensive coordinators in his time with the Rams, so it doesn’t seem that he knows how to find the right guy. Goff and Keenum are surrounded by more talent than they had under Fisher, so that could account for some of the quarterbacks’ improvement. That explanation, though, isn’t strong enough to restore Fisher’s reputation. Only winning could do that, and no franchise is going to give the 59-year-old anti-quarterback whisperer a chance now. Which is probably for the best.

I think we have to consider whether the fact that Keenum AND Goff suddenly turned in great seasons the year after the Rams fired Jeff Fisher could be an indication that those players weren't as bad as their stats looked, but that Jeff Fisher's coaching was partly to blame.

I don't know that I totally buy this argument, but it is interesting. Read the article for much more on this.

I think it's more than coincidence that over the past 3 years, Fisher had Foles, Keenum and Goff and after he was fired and 2 of them moved on...Foles won a Super Bowl MVP, Keenum had a great year and played in the NFCCG, Goff threw for almost 4000 yards and 28 TD's and lead the Rams to the playoffs. So, I think the answer lies in the middle. Fisher's system was NOT QB friendly and Keenum is better than what we saw with the Rams.

Originally Posted by CoachChaz

I think it's more than coincidence that over the past 3 years, Fisher had Foles, Keenum and Goff and after he was fired and 2 of them moved on...Foles won a Super Bowl MVP, Keenum had a great year and played in the NFCCG, Goff threw for almost 4000 yards and 28 TD's and lead the Rams to the playoffs. So, I think the answer lies in the middle. Fisher's system was NOT QB friendly and Keenum is better than what we saw with the Rams.

Fisher coached well beyond the time when he was burned out. He just wasn't very good.

Whether Keenum is really better than he looked with the Rams (as it now appears that Goff is better than he appeared under Fisher), or whether he just had a career year for the Vikings remains to be seen.

But, it's hard to argue when THREE guys suddenly bloom into good QBs as soon as Fisher left and they got a chance with another coach or another team.

In Foles' case, Philly has a great team, in Keenum's the Vikings have a boat-load of talent like Kyle Rudolph whereas the Broncos don't have a threat at TE.

But, that is not conclusive. What happened to Goff that he suddenly looked like the franchise QB they expected the minute Fisher left town?

Keenum is 30 and after 6 years in the NFL he could simply have figured it out. That does happen after all, it's just that most guys never get the chance to fail for a few years and then get another chance somewhere else. We'll get a chance to see this season, but there's a reasonable chance he'll be about as good for Denver as he was for the Vikings.

I will wait and see, I have my reservations about how good he really is. He's coming to Denver though where he will have some good players around him.

Originally Posted by Northman

I will wait and see, I have my reservations about how good he really is. He's coming to Denver though where he will have some good players around him.

And with continued FA success and a good draft (God willing), even more talent around him.

Fisher made his bones as a defensive coach (he was a Buddy Ryan disciple) and his philosophy on offense was largely not to lose games. Heavy ground attack. Lots of passes to tight ends. Makes you rethink what happened with Vince Young (whom Fisher did not want but Bud Adams did).

Keenum was a record-breaking QB at Univ of Houston under Kevin Sumlin who was said to be undersized and a "system QB". He was an undrafted free agent who signed with the Texans and started on their practice squad under Gary Kubiak. He was the third-string QB who mostly ran for his life behind a terrible offensive line. His time with the Rams has already been examined.

IMO, Keenum has "grown up" into an NFL QB. He had to learn what to do / not to do and he still makes panic throws which could upset Elway eventually. But Keenum has learned better how to play within an offense and to trust others to make plays instead of making them himself. He is a bright guy who plays with heart. I like this move over backing up the Brinks truck for Cousins.

I think the Broncos are going to spend 1-5 on their QBOTF but Keenum is there to allow that pick to be brought along slowly. They tried that with Lynch but, apparently, Lynch did not adapt. Unless they see something magical about Josh Allen, I think the Broncos have zeroed in on Rosen or Darnold who come out of the Pac-12. The problem with Mayfield, Rudolph or Jackson is that they are system QBs like Lynch and I suspect Elway doesn't want to start all over again with another Lynch.

Originally Posted by OrangeHoof

Fisher made his bones as a defensive coach (he was a Buddy Ryan disciple) and his philosophy on offense was largely not to lose games. Heavy ground attack. Lots of passes to tight ends. Makes you rethink what happened with Vince Young (whom Fisher did not want but Bud Adams did).

Keenum was a record-breaking QB at Univ of Houston under Kevin Sumlin who was said to be undersized and a "system QB". He was an undrafted free agent who signed with the Texans and started on their practice squad under Gary Kubiak. He was the third-string QB who mostly ran for his life behind a terrible offensive line. His time with the Rams has already been examined.

IMO, Keenum has "grown up" into an NFL QB. He had to learn what to do / not to do and he still makes panic throws which could upset Elway eventually. But Keenum has learned better how to play within an offense and to trust others to make plays instead of making them himself. He is a bright guy who plays with heart. I like this move over backing up the Brinks truck for Cousins.

I think the Broncos are going to spend 1-5 on their QBOTF but Keenum is there to allow that pick to be brought along slowly. They tried that with Lynch but, apparently, Lynch did not adapt. Unless they see something magical about Josh Allen, I think the Broncos have zeroed in on Rosen or Darnold who come out of the Pac-12. The problem with Mayfield, Rudolph or Jackson is that they are system QBs like Lynch and I suspect Elway doesn't want to start all over again with another Lynch.

Imagine if we tailored our system to complement the skills of our QB like other teams do. Amazing concept.

Well, consider the success of Goff, Foles, and Keenum after Fisher.

Starting to wonder if Vince Young may have been right all along.

Originally Posted by CoachChaz

Originally Posted by OrangeHoof

Fisher made his bones as a defensive coach (he was a Buddy Ryan disciple) and his philosophy on offense was largely not to lose games. Heavy ground attack. Lots of passes to tight ends. Makes you rethink what happened with Vince Young (whom Fisher did not want but Bud Adams did).

Keenum was a record-breaking QB at Univ of Houston under Kevin Sumlin who was said to be undersized and a "system QB". He was an undrafted free agent who signed with the Texans and started on their practice squad under Gary Kubiak. He was the third-string QB who mostly ran for his life behind a terrible offensive line. His time with the Rams has already been examined.

IMO, Keenum has "grown up" into an NFL QB. He had to learn what to do / not to do and he still makes panic throws which could upset Elway eventually. But Keenum has learned better how to play within an offense and to trust others to make plays instead of making them himself. He is a bright guy who plays with heart. I like this move over backing up the Brinks truck for Cousins.

I think the Broncos are going to spend 1-5 on their QBOTF but Keenum is there to allow that pick to be brought along slowly. They tried that with Lynch but, apparently, Lynch did not adapt. Unless they see something magical about Josh Allen, I think the Broncos have zeroed in on Rosen or Darnold who come out of the Pac-12. The problem with Mayfield, Rudolph or Jackson is that they are system QBs like Lynch and I suspect Elway doesn't want to start all over again with another Lynch.

Imagine if we tailored our system to complement the skills of our QB like other teams do. Amazing concept.

Lol yeah what an idea. I loved Emmanuels quotes on Keenum today. He is a big fan. I just appreciate how well he plays under duress and dont think it is a foregone conclusion that we draft a qb at 5 just because Keenums deal was short. Look at the deals for Robinson, and Cousins. Seems to be a trend with short term deals that are guaranteed

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Well, consider the success of Goff, Foles, and Keenum after Fisher.

Starting to wonder if Vince Young may have been right all along.

Well, that's going a little far. Young publicly stated after his career was over and he was trying to get a chance to get back into the NFL (a couple years ago now) that he didn't really understand what it took to be an NFL starting QB. He didn't put in the work. But, now, he said, he appreciates it and would totally dedicate himself, blah, blah, blah.

Nobody cared of course, all the NFL teams had moved on by then and none was willing to revisit that project. But, nobody can argue that anybody stymied Vince Young's development except Vince Young.

Originally Posted by Cugel

Well, that's going a little far. Young publicly stated after his career was over and he was trying to get a chance to get back into the NFL (a couple years ago now) that he didn't really understand what it took to be an NFL starting QB. He didn't put in the work. But, now, he said, he appreciates it and would totally dedicate himself, blah, blah, blah.

Nobody cared of course, all the NFL teams had moved on by then and none was willing to revisit that project. But, nobody can argue that anybody stymied Vince Young's development except Vince Young.

Yeah, after he had that mental breakdown of his. Something happened with him. I am wondering if he would have had another coach if he would have thrived. Probably not.

What is rather clear is Jeff Fisher was an actual detriment to QB development and if we want to include Bradford with that, we probably could.

Young was terrific the first two years when he could ad lib and just run all over the field like he did in college. Eventually, he got hurt and Fisher, rightfully, told Young he'd have to play under control and stop running. That, and the murder of Steve McNair who was like a father figure, truly changed Young. It's correct he wasn't disciplined and did not understand how dedicated he had to be to quarterback an NFL team. But he also was not the pure passer an NFL team needs and once you took away his run threat, he was a below average quarterback.

It's nice to say "well let's just adapt our offense to our quarterback" but you wind up with guys (Tebow, for one) who were fantastic in a college offense but couldn't cut it in the pros where the defenders are faster and stronger and will put you on the sidelines if you don't protect yourself and limit your hits.

Keenum sucked with Kubiak in Houston, he’s a World Championship HC.

Originally Posted by Jaded

Keenum sucked with Kubiak in Houston, he’s a World Championship HC.

To be more specific...Keenum was league average on a bad Houston team as a 1st year player under a mediocre coach that eventually won a championship when handed a championship team. I think "sucked" is a bit harsh.

Originally Posted by CoachChaz

To be more specific...Keenum was league average on a bad Houston team as a 1st year player under a mediocre coach that eventually won a championship when handed a championship team. I think "sucked" is a bit harsh.

I might be wrong here, but I doubt Elway sees this signing as on par with signing Manning.