Thread: Broncos will sign Case Keenum, per Schefter

Originally Posted by topscribe

See that's where you misunderstood. You apparently missed my response to North. When one
says something to the effect of "even the greatest . . . ," one isn't necessarily putting another
on their level. You apparently have me putting Keenum on Elway's level. So you missed my
point. Maybe that's my fault, I dunno. *shrugs*

Anyway, good debate. It was fun. Now I'm ready just to agree to disagree.

I'm not saying you're saying he's Elway - I'm saying the opposite. He's not Elway, and his one year wonder deal means we have to take his pathetic performance more seriously because of that.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

I'm not saying you're saying he's Elway - I'm saying the opposite. He's not Elway, and his one year wonder deal means we have to take his pathetic performance more seriously because of that.

Oh, now it's a pathetic performance? You're kidding, right? Do you know what quarterback
finished the season last year with the highest QB rating?

Top, I'm not sure why you are so in love with stats which will always be bloated by a game manager performance, but you're clinging to them. Tell me about his yards and TD's. Why don't we talk about that?

Anybody who is excited about CK and his stats but hated Kubiak’s offense NEEDS to go watch his Vikings games. It is a carbon copy of the dink and dunk that fans loved to hate, 5-6 RB screens/game, 4-5 WR screens/game, throwing short of the 1st down marker (even on 3rd down and 3 yards to go). He can not hit the deep out unless it’s to the slot receiver, he misses chunk plays to make the short throw. QB Waggles up the ass.

According to Minnesota media that was on Denver radio this week, CK got butthurt because his HC never considered him the “starter”, there’s a reason Zimmer never warmed up to CK ... because he’s Case Keenum.

The Broncos need to replicate what Vikings were able to do, I hope Musgrave is up to it, but Case Keenum is still Case Keenum. A back up talent.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

Top, I'm not sure why you are so in love with stats which will always be bloated by a game manager performance, but you're clinging to them. Tell me about his yards and TD's. Why don't we talk about that?

I guess you don't like stats? So you think there shouldn't be stats, that they don't show a thing?
But I can imagine why you don't like the stats. You base your opinion of Keenum on . . . well,
your opinion, I guess.

But you didn't answer my question: Who, among the active QBs at the end of the season,
finished with the best QB rating?

Or maybe you like Cousins' 27 TDs better than Keenum's 22? Of course, Cousins had to throw
twice as many INTs to get there. Maybe that's why Keenum had the best QBR in the league
last year, while Cousins was #15? I'm not saying that alone says Keenum is better than Cousins.
I'm just responding to your "pathetic" remark. You should have warned me . . . I was standing
up when I read that.

Originally Posted by Jaded

Anybody who is excited about CK and his stats but hated Kubiak’s offense NEEDS to go watch his Vikings games. It is a carbon copy of the dink and dunk that fans loved to hate, 5-6 RB screens/game, 4-5 WR screens/game, throwing short of the 1st down marker (even on 3rd and 2 and 3 yards to go). He can not hit the deep out unless it’s to the slot receiver, he misses chunk plays to make the short throw.

According to Minnesota media that was on Denver radio this week, CK got butthurt because his HC never considered him the “starter”, there’s a reason Zimmer never warmed up to CK ... because he’s Case Keenum.

The Broncos need to replicate what Vikings were able to do, I hope Musgrave is up to it, but Case Keenum is still Case Keenum. A back up talent.

I didn't hate Kubiak's offense, and I watched Vikings games. As I said, they are my sister's
favorite team, so I sat in at times. But stats tell a lot . . . much more than undocumented
opinions, which is all I've heard by those denigrating Keenum before he even picks up a
football for Denver. So blast away without your stats, and I'll support him with stats. The
numbers are far more credible than baseless opinions.

I’m struck by what Broncos must’ve thought of Manning during SB run, considering what they THINK is adequate replacements.

Originally Posted by topscribe

I guess you don't like stats? So you think there shouldn't be stats, that they don't show a thing?
But I can imagine why you don't like the stats. You base your opinion of Keenum on . . . well,
your opinion, I guess.

But you didn't answer my question: Who, among the active QBs at the end of the season,
finished with the best QB rating?

Or maybe you like Cousins' 27 TDs better than Keenum's 22? Of course, Cousins had to throw
twice as many INTs to get there. Maybe that's why Keenum had the best QBR in the league
last year, while Cousins was #15? I'm not saying that alone says Keenum is better than Cousins.
I'm just responding to your "pathetic" remark. You should have warned me . . . I was standing
up when I read that.

I'm sorry, I love stats. I also know how to apply them. The point is this - when you have a limited offense like CK ran, where you're throwing the ball not a ton a game, and you're not pushing the ball down the field, your completion percentage will be bloated. That's the point - when PFM has a high completion percentage, you know it's legitimate because of the high volume and the shots he'll take down the field. When you have a game manager led offense, and most of the throws are shorter, it gets especially bloated when you're not throwing the ball a lot. It's why in baseball to have an official average you have to have taken x amount of at bats. The same exact theory - if you don't have enough attempts the scant amount of attempts will bloat your number.

We know what the answer is - the point isn't what the answer is, but why and how he got that number.

Oh, you want to compare their seasons? Okay - great. One QB threw the ball to two pro bowl caliber guys. The other was throwing to a rookie and his former third stringer. How about we talk about that? The vast majority of fans couldn't name a skill position starter on Washington, and Cousins still had a good season in spite of that. So, with that being said, the fact that KC was able to throw for more TDs and more yards is impressive. And let's not stop short at this season, Top. Let's compare their best season. Take KC's best season and compare it to CK. Then compare the other two seasons of note that KC had and then compare it to the fact that this was the very first time that CK was ever worth a damn from a production standpoint.

Don't fall in love with game manager QB's. There's a reason why every team that ever had him let him go. And let's also be honest, we signed him because he's Kubiak's boy. So was TS. Oh joy.

Originally Posted by Jaded

Anybody who is excited about CK and his stats but hated Kubiak’s offense NEEDS to go watch his Vikings games. It is a carbon copy of the dink and dunk that fans loved to hate, 5-6 RB screens/game, 4-5 WR screens/game, throwing short of the 1st down marker (even on 3rd and 2 and 3 yards to go). He can not hit the deep out unless it’s to the slot receiver, he misses chunk plays to make the short throw.

According to Minnesota media that was on Denver radio this week, CK got butthurt because his HC never considered him the “starter”, there’s a reason Zimmer never warmed up to CK ... because he’s Case Keenum.

The Broncos need to replicate what Vikings were able to do, I hope Musgrave is up to it, but Case Keenum is still Case Keenum. A back up talent.

Sigh...

If they want to replicate what the Vikings did, then they need to play better defense. Pressure the QB, get more sacks, and create more turnovers.

Now, they have the money to improve the defense and finally get a decent OL.

Unfortunately, with radio as HC, I am not sure they can achieve what they want in that regard. What I do know is CK is an UPGRADE at QB and Cousins has not proven shit to justify that amount of money that the Broncos clearly could not afford.

Originally Posted by topscribe

I didn't hate Kubiak's offense, and I watched Vikings games. As I said, they are my sister's
favorite team, so I sat in at times. But stats tell a lot . . . much more than undocumented
opinions, which is all I've heard by those denigrating Keenum before he even picks up a
football for Denver. So blast away without your stats, and I'll support him with stats. The
numbers are far more credible than baseless opinions.

You mean like the constant sea of experts who think that Cousins is the superior QB? Or the teams whom let him go, including the only team whom he ever did anything with, without a second's hesitation? What undocumented opinions? You keep talking about numbers, but you aren't really using them. You're taking a one year wonder and comparing it to a guy who did well with less around him. You don't ever cite that, but you'll cite to contextless stats, which is never a good idea. Then, on top of that, you only reference one single year of his career (and we know why you have to do that) and never talk about the bulk of KC's career. So the fact that you think the stats back you up is astounding, especially since you're pointing to stats which are bloated by the nature of the style of play the Vikings ran.

That's now how you use stats.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Sigh...

If they want to replicate what the Vikings did, then they need to play better defense. Pressure the QB, get more sacks, and create more turnovers.

Now, they have the money to improve the defense and finally get a decent OL.

Unfortunately, with radio as HC, I am not sure they can achieve what they want in that regard. What I do know is CK is an UPGRADE at QB and Cousins has not proven shit to justify that amount of money that the Broncos clearly could not afford.

If they want to do what the Vikings did, then they need to draft better, at OL, and on defense. CK MIGHT be an upgrade. Cousins has put up three straight strong years, and put up a really good year with nothing around him. Meanwhile we have the most expensive backup caliber QB in the league. Oh joy. Oh joy. Oh joy.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

I'm sorry, I love stats. I also know how to apply them. The point is this - when you have a limited offense like CK ran, where you're throwing the ball not a ton a game, and you're not pushing the ball down the field, your completion percentage will be bloated. That's the point - when PFM has a high completion percentage, you know it's legitimate because of the high volume and the shots he'll take down the field. When you have a game manager led offense, and most of the throws are shorter, it gets especially bloated when you're not throwing the ball a lot. It's why in baseball to have an official average you have to have taken x amount of at bats. The same exact theory - if you don't have enough attempts the scant amount of attempts will bloat your number.

We know what the answer is - the point isn't what the answer is, but why and how he got that number.

Oh, you want to compare their seasons? Okay - great. One QB threw the ball to two pro bowl caliber guys. The other was throwing to a rookie and his former third stringer. How about we talk about that? The vast majority of fans couldn't name a skill position starter on Washington, and Cousins still had a good season in spite of that. So, with that being said, the fact that KC was able to throw for more TDs and more yards is impressive. And let's not stop short at this season, Top. Let's compare their best season. Take KC's best season and compare it to CK. Then compare the other two seasons of note that KC had and then compare it to the fact that this was the very first time that CK was ever worth a damn from a production standpoint.

Don't fall in love with game manager QB's. There's a reason why every team that ever had him let him go. And let's also be honest, we signed him because he's Kubiak's boy. So was TS. Oh joy.

Oh, okay. So you think I don't know how to apply stats. My horrendously painful 5 credit
hours in statistics didn't count for anything. Sorry, but I didn't read any further than that.
I really did not appreciate that slight.

Anyway, I'm not predicting anything for Keenum. He could give us just a journeyman's
season. He could fall flat on his face. Or he could play lights out. I don't know, and
neither do you, until he actually plays. You predicted his demise. I predicted nothing, but
only mentioned what he has accomplished. Yet I'm sure you favor your own opinions.
I favor numbers and accomplishments. Those are the facts.

Have a good night.

Originally Posted by topscribe

I didn't hate Kubiak's offense, and I watched Vikings games. As I said, they are my sister's
favorite team, so I sat in at times. But stats tell a lot . . . much more than undocumented
opinions, which is all I've heard by those denigrating Keenum before he even picks up a
football for Denver. So blast away without your stats, and I'll support him with stats. The
numbers are far more credible than baseless opinions.

I didn’t hate Kubiak’s system either and I know it when I see it, CK beyond a shadow of a doubt has an inflated completion percentage. If I were you I’d focus on a different stat, pick something that people would be too lazy to debunk.

For example, passer rating under pressure can only be debunked by someone willing to chart plays, it’s an incomplete stat with zero context. Completing a 2 yard pass on 3rd and 3 is different than Rodgers heaving up a game winning Hail Mary, or Patrick Mahomes drilling 14 yards on 3rd and 13 with a DB draped around his legs.

To be sure, I have no interest in charting plays, I have no need to. If I were interested in changing your mind, maybe, but I’m not.

Originally Posted by Jaded

Anybody who is excited about CK and his stats but hated Kubiak’s offense NEEDS to go watch his Vikings games. It is a carbon copy of the dink and dunk that fans loved to hate, 5-6 RB screens/game, 4-5 WR screens/game, throwing short of the 1st down marker (even on 3rd and 2 and 3 yards to go). He can not hit the deep out unless it’s to the slot receiver, he misses chunk plays to make the short throw. QB Waggles up the ass.

According to Minnesota media that was on Denver radio this week, CK got butthurt because his HC never considered him the “starter”, there’s a reason Zimmer never warmed up to CK ... because he’s Case Keenum.

The Broncos need to replicate what Vikings were able to do, I hope Musgrave is up to it, but Case Keenum is still Case Keenum. A back up talent.

This. Exactly this. This is what I saw from Keenum this past year.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

You mean like the constant sea of experts who think that Cousins is the superior QB? Or the teams whom let him go, including the only team whom he ever did anything with, without a second's hesitation? What undocumented opinions? You keep talking about numbers, but you aren't really using them. You're taking a one year wonder and comparing it to a guy who did well with less around him. You don't ever cite that, but you'll cite to contextless stats, which is never a good idea. Then, on top of that, you only reference one single year of his career (and we know why you have to do that) and never talk about the bulk of KC's career. So the fact that you think the stats back you up is astounding, especially since you're pointing to stats which are bloated by the nature of the style of play the Vikings ran.

That's now how you use stats.

Once again, I read only your final sentence. I didn't use stats. I revealed them. But I guess
you think you're educated, and I'm not. You've turned the debate into me, and I've stopped
reading you. Good night.