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Thread: Some Are Blaming the Broncos' "Decline in Talent" on Elway's Drafting. But Is This True?

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    Default Some Are Blaming the Broncos' "Decline in Talent" on Elway's Drafting. But Is This True?

    First of all, I don't subscribe to the "lack of talent" hypothesis. I think there is plenty
    of talent on the Broncos. Much of the talent has come from trades and FAs. But how
    much has Elway whiffed in the draft? Here are his "hits" year-by-year:

    2011 - Of course, the highlight was the selection of Von Miller, probably still the best
    player on the squad. But we also got Orlando Franklin and Julius Thomas, and then
    picked up Virgil Green in the 7th round. A fair haul.

    2012 - A power draft. Whiffed on Ronnie Hillman, Omar Bolden, and Phillip Blake
    (just had to have a namesake for a bust, didn't I?). Have to throw Osweiler in there,
    too . . . 2nd rounders should work out. But that was the year we nabbed Derek Wolfe,
    Malik Jackson, and Danny Trevathan. Couldn't keep the latter two, but that doesn't
    mean they weren't great selections.

    2013 - Disaster. Have to admit it. Kayvon Webster became a pretty good player for a
    third rounder. Sylvester Williams hung on for a while but never justified his first-round
    selection. Of course, there was the tragedy involving Tavarres King. But it was a very
    forgettable draft year.

    2014 - A really good year. Roby, Latimer (who has really come on of late), Paradis
    (our Iron Man who enforces the middle of the OL), and Corey Nelson in the 7th.
    Missed on Schofield and Barrow. But the former four are still with us.

    2015- Not a good year. Shane Ray and possibly Jeff Heuerman, who has come on some
    as of late. That's it. If Heuerman doesn't make it, it will be a year to rival 2013.

    2016 - Hit it out of the park. Well, the jury's out on Paxton Lynch (maybe permanently
    out). But after him, we got Gotsis, Simmons, Booker, McGovern, Janovich, Parks, and
    Riley Dixon. All are still with us as of this final game, and all have impacted the squad
    . . . well, except for Lynch so far. Would like to have a draft like this every year.

    2017 - Another possible mother lode. Bolles, Walker, Carlos Henderson, Langley, Butt,
    Mckenzie, De'Angelo Henderson, and Kelly. Too early to tell with some of them, of
    course, and Carlos and Butt have been injured all season, of course. But all who have
    played have flashed at times. A hopeful group, IMO.

    I just don't think Elway has done that bad of a job, overall. I haven't done it, but if one
    were to do some research and compare his drafting with others in the league, I'm not
    so sure he would come off that badly. And let's not forget his near genius with FAs,
    which was big factor in our playoff years and Super Bowls.
    Last edited by topscribe; 12-31-2017 at 10:28 PM.
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    He's done fairly well over all but regarding QBs, not so much. He has one hit out of the park at with FA at QB. And only barely...because he formed a damn fine defense after the best offense the NFL has maybe ever seen ('13) didn't do it...because, defense (and Manning choked on himself)!

    Manning only gets the nod because he was enough of a vet and old man to get over himself, and get out of the way. He sucked that year but I seriously doubt anyone else could have made that SB team work like he did, and play the perfect balance of leader and 'get the f out of the way' guy that he did. 'Get the f out of the way' does also equal leader in this equation.

    So far, Elway has proven a loser at drafting QB talent. Although I have high hopes for Kelly, he is an easy win at Mr Irrelevant. QBs are the draft that matters when viewing his success but if he gets over himself and keeps winning else-wise...and lands another great FA QB, then his failures in that area can be forgiven and forgotten.

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    You said Butt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    You said Butt
    Butt, butt. Chicken Butt. Which butt/ but is true?

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    This feels like an excuse thread ignoring ALL the guys who were overdrafted. Just because they have gotten ‘some use’ out of these duds does not these good drafts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tbolt View Post
    This feels like an excuse thread ignoring ALL the guys who were overdrafted. Just because they have gotten ‘some use’ out of these duds does not these good drafts.
    In other words, you would rather ignore those players who succeeded, right?

    Ah but, did you miss my comments on the 2013 and 2015 drafts? Or did you ignore them?
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tbolt View Post
    This feels like an excuse thread ignoring ALL the guys who were overdrafted. Just because they have gotten ‘some use’ out of these duds does not these good drafts.
    More than use. His only true failure is at QB, consistently. Miller, JT, VG is solid and a fantastic blocker (could be better used by a team that knows how to use TEs). Wolfe, MJ. Roby, Latimer, Paradis. Ray. Gotsis, Simmons, Booker, McGovern, Janovich, Parks, and
    Riley Dixon. Bolles is experiencing all the growing pains that is proper in a rookie but is solid.

    I don't mention his QB drafts, per my previous comment on them being his area of failure. And we all know how painful it is to lament over his area of failure.

    Otherwise, 'overdrafted'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    First of all, I don't subscribe to the "lack of talent" hypothesis. I think there is plenty
    of talent on the Broncos. Much of the talent has come from trades and FAs. But how
    much has Elway whiffed in the draft? Here are his "hits" year-by-year:

    2011 - Of course, the highlight was the selection of Von Miller, probably still the best
    player on the squad. But we also got Orlando Franklin and Julius Thomas
    ... who were and are garbage, even though Franklin was a mid-2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    , and then picked up Virgil Green in the 7th round.
    That's actually a typical draft for Elway: His early picks are almost invariably awful unless his options are "anyone but Cam Newton" and many of his late round picks and UDFAs are hidden gems. I'm still unsure whether that's a net positive or negative; if your 1st and 2nd round picks are always 4th and 5th round talents but your 5th and 6th round picks are always 2nd and 3rd round talent, are ahead of or behind the game...?

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    2012 - A power draft. Whiffed on Ronnie Hillman, Omar Bolden, and Phillip Blake
    (just had to have a namesake for a bust, didn't I?). Have to throw Osweiler in there,
    too . . . 2nd rounders should work out. But that was the year we nabbed Derek Wolfe,
    Malik Jackson, and Danny Trevathan. Couldn't keep the latter two, but that doesn't
    mean they weren't great selections.
    Again typical: Wolfe was a 2nd rounder, but Osweiler's our only 2012 pick still PLAYING—except for our final two picks, who are still quality starters.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    2013 - Disaster. Have to admit it. Kayvon Webster became a pretty good player for a
    third rounder. Sylvester Williams hung on for a while but never justified his first-round
    selection. Of course, there was the tragedy involving Tavarres King. But it was a very
    forgettable draft year.
    Elway drafted a 3rd rounder who performs better than his 1st rounder? The devil you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    2014 - A really good year. Roby, Latimer (who has really come on of late), Paradis
    (our Iron Man who enforces the middle of the OL), and Corey Nelson in the 7th.
    Missed on Schofield and Barrow. But the former four are still with us.
    Latimer's a 2nd rounder only beginning to occasionally show up in his final contract year: That's a bust. Roby's legit and rare mid-1st round success for Elway, but that "really good years" sole other success is getting a reliable but underpowered C in the 6th.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    2015- Not a good year. Shane Ray and possibly Jeff Heuerman, who has come on some
    as of late. That's it. If Heuerman doesn't make it, it will be a year to rival 2013.
    Ray was simply wasted value for a team that already had not one but TWO All Pro likely HoFers at the position. He's not bad, but neither is he 1st round quality, and wouldn't have been worth OUR 1st round pick even if he were. You can't go BPA with a playoff team, because the "best players" are gone long before your pick, and even if one drops as Ray did, you probably already have too many good players to use him, as Denver did.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    2016 - Hit it out of the park. Well, the jury's out on Paxton Lynch (maybe permanently
    out). But after him, we got Gotsis, Simmons, Booker, McGovern, Janovich, Parks, and
    Riley Dixon. All are still with us as of this final game, and all have impacted the squad
    . . . well, except for Lynch so far. Would like to have a draft like this every year.

    2017 - Another possible mother lode. Bolles, Walker, Carlos Henderson, Langley, Butt,
    Mckenzie, De'Angelo Henderson, and Kelly. Too early to tell with some of them, of
    course, and Carlos and Butt have been injured all season, of course. But all who have
    played have flashed at times. A hopeful group, IMO.

    I just don't think Elway has done that bad of a job, overall. I haven't done it, but if one
    were to do some research and compare his drafting with others in the league, I'm not
    so sure he would come off that badly. And let's not forget his near genius with FAs,
    which was big factor in our playoff years and Super Bowls.
    EVERY draft class is a "possible mother lode" AND possible bust in its second year: It's too soon to tell either way, especially with the later round guys who usually need time to develop mentally, physically or both, when they don't spend their rookie season nursing injuries that ended their final collegiate season. All that said, Elways relatively brief draft history suggests his 2016 and 2017 class will be similar to the rest: The early picks will underperform and the later picks overperform.

    Just don't let him draft any more QBs nor RBs: Kubiak's made a career out of it and Elway's consistently awful at it, so let each play to his strength.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

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    [QUOTE=Joel;2705448]... who were and are garbage, even though Franklin was a mid-2nd

    Garbage? Franklin was a good RT while he played for the Broncos. And Thomas has continued
    to be considered a threat, even after leaving us. He was a very good 4th round selection, and
    Green was a very good 7th round selection.


    Again typical: Wolfe was a 2nd rounder, but Osweiler's our only 2012 pick still PLAYING
    —except for our final two picks, who are still quality starters.

    So you're saying if they're not playing for US, they weren't good choices, right? Last I heard,
    they both were doing pretty good jobs for their respective teams. The issue isn't whether they
    stayed. It is the quality of the pick. Jackson and Trevathan were both superb choices. That's
    not even debatable.


    Latimer's a 2nd rounder only beginning to occasionally show up in his final contract year: That's a bust. Roby's legit and rare mid-1st round success for Elway, but that "really good years" sole other success is getting a reliable but underpowered C in the 6th.
    Disagree. Latimer is not a bust. He is the #3 receiver now, but look who he's behind. He became
    a dangerous receiver in the latter half of the season. And he was regarded as the best on STs
    all season. If he doesn't break out next season, he's a bust. I'm betting he breaks out. Therefore,
    I don't yet consider him a bust.

    And why do you downgrade Paradis? He is widely considered one of the better centers in the
    league. Underpowered? Because he's "only" 300 lbs? Nalen weight 285. Center is one position
    where the size is not quite as critical. He is very technically sound and has an extremely high
    football I.Q. A terrific pick for where he was taken. And you didn't mention Corey Nelson, a
    very good 7th round pick.


    Ray was simply wasted value for a team that already had not one but TWO All Pro likely HoFers at the position. He's not bad, but neither is he 1st round quality, and wouldn't have been worth OUR 1st round pick even if he were. You can't go BPA with a playoff team, because the "best players" are gone long before your pick, and even if one drops as Ray did, you probably already have too many good players to use him, as Denver did.
    Disagree again. You might not have heard, but Ray played his position with one hand this season.
    A pass rusher needs both hands. Ray was probably the best one-handed rusher I could imagine.
    You are jumping the gun on your assessment of him. Let's see what he can do next year with two
    hands. Meanwhile, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. So, as I implied, 2015 is still in the air,
    depending on how he and Heuerman perform next year. It will still not be a terrific year, even if
    both break out, but at least it will beat 2013, which, admittedly, shouldn't be hard.


    EVERY draft class is a "possible mother lode" AND possible bust in its second year: It's too soon to tell either way, especially with the later round guys who usually need time to develop mentally, physically or both, when they don't spend their rookie season nursing injuries that ended their final collegiate season. All that said, Elways relatively brief draft history suggests his 2016 and 2017 class will be similar to the rest: The early picks will underperform and the later picks overperform.
    I'm not going to get into what history suggests, even though I believe I've shown that his
    history is not as bad as some of you claim. The 2017 class has shown quality this year,
    and that's what I'm going by. That's why I used the term "possible." When that term is
    used, there's not much left to debate.

    Just don't let him draft any more QBs nor RBs: Kubiak's made a career out of it and Elway's consistently awful at it, so let each play to his strength.
    How many QBs has Elway drafted in the upper rounds? Two, right? How is that a sufficient
    number to call his performance "consistently"? You might consider Lynch and Osweiler
    garbage, but I don't. Especially Lynch -- he has played in 5½ whole games. That is not
    enough to assess how good a QB is going to be. If that were the case, both Manning and
    Elway would have been dumped, and neither in the argument for G.O.A.T. as they are
    today. Go back and look at their first respective years. I was thoroughly denigrated earlier
    tonight for having a sensible approach to it, but that is the sensible approach. But jumping
    the gun and shallow analyses sometimes seem the norm here.
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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    "You might consider Lynch and Osweiler
    garbage, but I don't. Especially Lynch -- he has played in 5½ whole games. That is not
    enough to assess how good a QB is going to be. If that were the case, both Manning and
    Elway would have been dumped, and neither in the argument for G.O.A.T. as they are
    today. Go back and look at their first respective years."

    Neither of them had to deal with Elway as he is today, and had to suffer the denigration of being entirely questioned at a base level. And yeah, we know what Osweiller has to offer. We have seen years of Osweiller and know what he has to give. I loved him but he's an unsteady backup at best. That's probably not a bad 2nd round spend but there should be no confusion about him NOT being what Elway hoped he would be. And Lynch; He may have been better than a far stretch of a hope for a backup...but he was drafted by Elway. And got screwed by Elway. He was not developed the way he should have been...by Elway. We will never know what Lynch could be under a team owned by Elway. We may get to see Lynch as more than Elway positioned him to be but it will not be as a Bronco. Basically, yeah. Elway is fair at other picks but to reach and hope that his QB picks are more than they are is just....reaching. I totally reached myself but...woke up. Osweiller and Lynch could both have been better than they are but we will never know. We get to live in the world where Elway makes all decisions and after taking chances with QBs like Lynch, he refuses to pay the dues needed to develop him. He was open to giving the team to Osweiller but he maybe made a good choice on being a scrooge, since Osweiller has proven to be an unreliable backup at best. Certainly not worth a 50-60 mil contract.

    I totally agree with you that when comparing these two with Manning and Elway, in their first year, we might find a false equivalency in their potential. I have used this argument in the past. It's not without value but is just that, false equivalency. It can only be equivalent if they become the equivalent of either of those players. And they will most definitely not become the equivalent of either Manning or Elway. I could be wrong but I am most assuredly not wrong about that happening with the Broncos. The Broncos have a history of success and although Elway's projections have helped that history along, his draft picks at QB have crippled the team, horribly. The win-loss record stands for itself. Thus, hoping that because Elway and Manning...and even Brady sucked in their first years, does not mean that Osweiller or Lynch will suddenly, magically gain the attributes that made those men legends just because we hope it will happen. I did that with Siemian. And Lynch. And Osweiller.

    Didn't happen. They are not Elway, Brady, or Manning. If they could have been if Elway wasn't a ***** and gave them a better opportunity to become such is not an argument, because Elway is in charge and they/ he have failed.

    Elway sucks at drafting/ developing QBs. At least, so far as his record states. We have no choice but to be OK with this, since we are only observers. He's good at making deals though, so we have hope to gain a ringer FA while we wait for Elway to become not-Elway and develop the next franchise QB. Or, we can always live with FA mercenaries that use Denver as a stepping ground, and not a home. That's OK too. I hope I'm wrong though...

    "I was thoroughly denigrated earlier tonight for having a sensible approach to it, but that is the sensible approach. But jumping
    the gun and shallow analyses sometimes seem the norm here"

    I'm sorry for your experiences. I've experienced the same and devolved into a responsive barbarian until the club made people offer more here. Just keep smashing and you'll find conversation. I wish there could be a place where there this wasn't the case but....not so much.
    Last edited by Ground Control; 01-01-2018 at 05:29 AM.

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    Not that a pro bowl means jack shit, other than the fact that the Broncos are one of two franchises that have not drafted pro bowler since 2012.

    Hard to get past drafting Osweiler in the second round over Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins.

    Cannot tell which is worse. That, or him drafting Montee Ball over Le'Veon Bell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncoknight30 View Post
    Not that a pro bowl means jack shit, other than the fact that the Broncos are one of two franchises that have not drafted pro bowler since 2012.

    Hard to get past drafting Osweiler in the second round over Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins.

    Cannot tell which is worse. That, or him drafting Montee Ball over Le'Veon Bell.
    There is also that. The other teams that have benefited from Elway's failure of vision. He has sucked at picking unproven QBs in the draft. He and we must acknowledge that. If not, we're ******, yo. It's not like he's a fool for it. QBs are a complete gamble, unless a team is willing to mold the team around the god-damned player they place it's future in. Elway has to be willing to give up control and place his future in the next Bronco QB.

    All in. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground Control View Post
    "You might consider Lynch and Osweiler
    garbage, but I don't. Especially Lynch -- he has played in 5½ whole games. That is not
    enough to assess how good a QB is going to be. If that were the case, both Manning and
    Elway would have been dumped, and neither in the argument for G.O.A.T. as they are
    today. Go back and look at their first respective years."

    Neither of them had to deal with Elway as he is today, and had to suffer the denigration of being entirely questioned at a base level. And yeah, we know what Osweiller has to offer. We have seen years of Osweiller and know what he has to give. I loved him but he's an unsteady backup at best. That's probably not a bad 2nd round spend but there should be no confusion about him NOT being what Elway hoped he would be. And Lynch; He may have been better than a far stretch of a hope for a backup...but he was drafted by Elway. And got screwed by Elway. He was not developed the way he should have been...by Elway. We will never know what Lynch could be under a team owned by Elway. We may get to see Lynch as more than Elway positioned him to be but it will not be as a Bronco. Basically, yeah. Elway is fair at other picks but to reach and hope that his QB picks are more than they are is just....reaching. I totally reached myself but...woke up. Osweiller and Lynch could both have been better than they are but we will never know. We get to live in the world where Elway makes all decisions and after taking chances with QBs like Lynch, he refuses to pay the dues needed to develop him. He was open to giving the team to Osweiller but he maybe made a good choice on being a scrooge, since Osweiller has proven to be an unreliable backup at best. Certainly not worth a 50-60 mil contract.

    I totally agree with you that when comparing these two with Manning and Elway, in their first year, we might find a false equivalency in their potential. I have used this argument in the past. It's not without value but is just that, false equivalency. It can only be equivalent if they become the equivalent of either of those players. And they will most definitely not become the equivalent of either Manning or Elway. I could be wrong but I am most assuredly not wrong about that happening with the Broncos. The Broncos have a history of success and although Elway's projections have helped that history along, his draft picks at QB have crippled the team, horribly. The win-loss record stands for itself. Thus, hoping that because Elway and Manning...and even Brady sucked in their first years, does not mean that Osweiller or Lynch will suddenly, magically gain the attributes that made those men legends just because we hope it will happen. I did that with Siemian. And Lynch. And Osweiller.

    Didn't happen. They are not Elway, Brady, or Manning. If they could have been if Elway wasn't a ***** and gave them a better opportunity to become such is not an argument, because Elway is in charge and they/ he have failed.

    Elway sucks at drafting/ developing QBs. At least, so far as his record states. We have no choice but to be OK with this, since we are only observers. He's good at making deals though, so we have hope to gain a ringer FA while we wait for Elway to become not-Elway and develop the next franchise QB. Or, we can always live with FA mercenaries that use Denver as a stepping ground, and not a home. That's OK too. I hope I'm wrong though...

    "I was thoroughly denigrated earlier tonight for having a sensible approach to it, but that is the sensible approach. But jumping
    the gun and shallow analyses sometimes seem the norm here"

    I'm sorry for your experiences. I've experienced the same and devolved into a responsive barbarian until the club made people offer more here. Just keep smashing and you'll find conversation. I wish there could be a place where there this wasn't the case but....not so much.
    The one word that we cannot get past in regards to Lynch is......NOTHING. We know NOTHING, other than the fact that he has shown really NOTHING in two seasons. Now, he may have only played in a handful of REGULAR SEASON games, but that does not mean he has not been through TWO training camps and TWO preaseaons. In that time, he has shown NOTHING that even suggests he is SOMETHING.

    Ok, we have not seen much out of him, but that is not the concern. Not with me anyway. If he has shown promise of any kind then I would say lets give him a chance. However, he has not shown any real promise. Him connecting on a handful of passes here or there is really not something to build on.

    Here is the situation that is rather dire and we are in the spiral of Brownsville right now. Here it is. They draft Paxton Lynch and then they change the coaching staff. He is already behind the 8 ball being that he does not have the mental aspect of the pro game. Then, he goes through another play book, another training camp and the new CBA does not allow Lynch to work with players etc. Not like they use to.

    So, now it seems he will be going through yet another coaching staff. Hopefully. I doubt another staff will come in here wanting to work with Lynch. Meaning, a new coaching staff typically has their own vision and QB is rather vital. Does Lynch come across as a guy that can learn a whole new play book with whole new concepts? No, he does not.

    He has shown NOTHING and that is the main problem as I see it in regards to Lynch.
    Last edited by Broncoknight30; 01-01-2018 at 05:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncoknight30 View Post
    The one word that we cannot get past in regards to Lynch is......NOTHING. We know NOTHING, other than the fact that he is shown really NOTHING in two seasons. Now, he may have only played in a handful of REGULAR SEASON games, but that does not mean he has not been through TWO training camps and TWO preaseaons. In that time, he has shown NOTHING that even suggests he is SOMETHING.

    Ok, we have not seen much out of him, but that is not the concern. Not with me anyway. If he has shown promise of any kind then I would say lets give him a chance. However, he has not shown any real promise. Him connecting on a handful of passes here or there is really not something to build on.

    Here is the situation that is rather dire and we are in the spiral of Brownsville right now. Here it is. They draft Paxton Lynch and then they change the coaching staff. He is already behind the 8 ball being that he does not have the mental aspect of the pro game. Then, he goes through another play book, another training camp and the new CBA does not allow Lynch to work with players etc. Not like they use to.

    So, now it seems he will be going through yet another coaching staff. Hopefully. I doubt another staff will come in here wanting to work with Lynch. Meaning, a new coaching staff typically has their own vision and QB is rather vital. Does Lynch come across as a guy that can learn a whole new play book with whole new concepts? No, he does not.

    He has shown NOTHING and that is the main problem as I see it in regards to Lynch.
    Maybe not nothing, since we have been able to form an opinion that he offers nothing. No ability to adapt, or even grasp, even the system he is in, let alone any new system he's presented with. Raw talent in the realm of school-level optics is basically nothing. So, by showing nothing, maybe Lynch has shown us everything we need to see?

    Otherwise, well said.
    Last edited by Ground Control; 01-01-2018 at 05:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    ... who were and are garbage, even though Franklin was a mid-2nd
    Garbage? Franklin was a good RT while he played for the Broncos.
    He was such a great RT we moved him to G despite having NOTHING ELSE at RT, then cut him when he was just as bad at G.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    And Thomas has continued
    to be considered a threat, even after leaving us.
    Thomas continued to be MIA even after leaving us; it's "so easy" playing with Manning fresh off his record shattering year, but even then it helps to suit up at least half the games. Also helps to block if you're a starting TE rather than a third string WR.
    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Green was a very good 7th round selection.
    No disagreement: A better TE than Thomas, and a good example of Elway partially redeeming his generally awful drafts by getting the talent late he should find early.
    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    —except for our final two picks, who are still quality starters.
    So you're saying if they're not playing for US, they weren't good choices, right? Last I heard,
    they both were doing pretty good jobs for their respective teams. The issue isn't whether they
    stayed. It is the quality of the pick. Jackson and Trevathan were both superb choices. That's
    not even debatable.
    Not saying starters suck unless playing for us; remaining starters elsewhere simply because we can't afford them proves they don't suck, and I'm not debating that: I'm saying we should be able to find quality starters before the 5th and 6th round.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Disagree. Latimer is not a bust. He is the #3 receiver now, but look who he's behind. He became
    a dangerous receiver in the latter half of the season. And he was regarded as the best on STs
    all season. If he doesn't break out next season, he's a bust. I'm betting he breaks out. Therefore,
    I don't yet consider him a bust.
    He's a fourth-year 2nd-rounder: If he's not "broken out" yet, he's a bust. So much so that if 2018 IS his breakout season, it'll probably be with another team, and not because we can't afford his vet minimum contract, but because we can and do get as much or more from the likes of and Bennie Fowler Jordan Taylor for far less cash.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    And why do you downgrade Paradis? He is widely considered one of the better centers in the
    league. Underpowered? Because he's "only" 300 lbs? Nalen weight 285. Center is one position
    where the size is not quite as critical. He is very technically sound and has an extremely high
    football I.Q. A terrific pick for where he was taken. And you didn't mention Corey Nelson, a
    very good 7th round pick.
    Paradis isn't underpowered because of his size, but because DTs routinely push him around unless we give him help from a double team. His agility's heaven sent as long as DTs, DEs and LBs can run circles around clumsy slow Gs like Man-Ram, Garcia, Schofield etc. But he is to our run blocking what Franklin et al. are to our pass protection. And I didn't mention Corey Nelson because he's not worth mentioning; plays well for a 7th rounder, but that's a big qualifier.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Disagree again. You might not have heard, but Ray played his position with one hand this season.
    A pass rusher needs both hands. Ray was probably the best one-handed rusher I could imagine.
    You are jumping the gun on your assessment of him. Let's see what he can do next year with two
    hands. Meanwhile, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. So, as I implied, 2015 is still in the air,
    depending on how he and Heuerman perform next year. It will still not be a terrific year, even if
    both break out, but at least it will beat 2013, which, admittedly, shouldn't be hard.
    It's great Ray had a decent season one-handed; it's not so great yet another 1st round pick needed three seasons to make the starting lineup and may not stay there, just as Sly and Latimer (though the latter was a 2nd rounder) before him. Roby ended his rookie game with a game-saving swatdown of a from a likely HoFer to a definite HoFer: Ray couldn't even get on the field his first two seasons unless Ware or Von were tired/hurt. That's a more an indictment of Elways position priorities than of Rays ability to play his position, but whether a guy's riding pine because we don't need or can't use him, he's not helping us win.

    Meanwhile, where are Sambrailo, Garcia, Doss and all our other 2015 picks? Going nowhere fast three years running. When the best players you get out of a draft are a part-time first rounder and a guy rarely healthy enough to play, you blew your draft.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    I'm not going to get into what history suggests, even though I believe I've shown that his
    history is not as bad as some of you claim. The 2017 class has shown quality this year,
    and that's what I'm going by. That's why I used the term "possible." When that term is
    used, there's not much left to debate.
    True, but a convenience that's prompted many to dub qualifiers of all stripes "weasel words." Yet the saying is "history doesn't repeat, but does rhyme," and there's every reason to believe, and no reason to doubt, Elways 2016 and 2017 drafts will eventually prove comparable to his others. Y'know, the ones that prompted several posters to joke we should trade down for a bunch of 5th rounders, since we never draft starters till then anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    How many QBs has Elway drafted in the upper rounds? Two, right? How is that a sufficient
    number to call his performance "consistently"? You might consider Lynch and Osweiler
    garbage, but I don't. Especially Lynch -- he has played in 5½ whole games. That is not
    enough to assess how good a QB is going to be. If that were the case, both Manning and
    Elway would have been dumped, and neither in the argument for G.O.A.T. as they are
    today. Go back and look at their first respective years. I was thoroughly denigrated earlier
    tonight for having a sensible approach to it, but that is the sensible approach. But jumping
    the gun and shallow analyses sometimes seem the norm here.
    We're not just talking QBs though: It was hard to miss with his pick of "anyone not named Cam Newton," but our 1st-3rd rounders since are Wolfe, Oz, Hillman, Sly, Ball, Webster, Roby, Latimer, Schofield, Ray, Sambrailo and Heuerman. That's 2½ starters out of nine high picks, a poor return.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

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