Thread: Some Are Blaming the Broncos' "Decline in Talent" on Elway's Drafting. But Is This True?

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Actually criticising that he had Osweiler higher than Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins is a legit criticism.

You do realize that it wasnt just Elway that had Oz higher than Wilson and Cousins right? The draft rankings has nothing to do with the HC's, its all pre-determined by the scouts, etc. Now, you can argue that John didnt wait until the 3rd round to take a guy like Wilson or Cousins but it doesnt change the fact that going into the draft that Oz was rated as a higher prospect than the other two. If it wasnt John it would of been someone else taking Oz in the second round because that is where Oz was projected to go.

Originally Posted by Northman

You do realize that it wasnt just Elway that had Oz higher than Wilson and Cousins right? The draft rankings has nothing to do with the HC's, its all pre-determined by the scouts, etc. Now, you can argue that John didnt wait until the 3rd round to take a guy like Wilson or Cousins but it doesnt change the fact that going into the draft that Oz was rated as a higher prospect than the other two. If it wasnt John it would of been someone else taking Oz in the second round because that is where Oz was projected to go.

Elway is the GM and it stops with him. Granted all of what you say is true. All criticisms of drafts is hindsight. It is perfectly legit to LOOK BACK and say the scouting team and everyone involved screwed up by having wilson and cousins ranked lower than Osweiler. Unfair, maybe.

Then again we all agree they suck at drafting QBs. So, making that statement is the end of it? Not pointing out who they could have had at that pick?

Also, the POSITION DRAFTED is key here too. Pointing out 32 GMs is dumb. It was the Broncos drafting a QB.

Like when the Broncos scouting team had Montee Ball ranked higher than Bell. Again, it is a position comparison.

Do you think Shanny was dumb for passing up on Brady in 2000?

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

Do you think Shanny was dumb for passing up on Brady in 2000?

Elway sucks at drafting QBs.

He ranked Osweiler over Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Elway is the GM and it stops with him. Granted all of what you say is true. All criticisms of drafts is hindsight. It is perfectly legit to LOOK BACK and say the scouting team and everyone involved screwed up by having wilson and cousins ranked lower than Osweiler. Unfair, maybe.

Then again we all agree they suck at drafting QBs. So, making that statement is the end of it? Not pointing out who they could have had at that pick?

Also, the POSITION DRAFTED is key here too. Pointing out 32 GMs is dumb. It was the Broncos drafting a QB.

Like when the Broncos scouting team had Montee Ball ranked higher than Bell. Again, it is a position comparison.

I dont have a problem with pointing out that the Broncos need to do a better job of scouting/researching/etc when it comes to the draft. But then this has been a pretty big problem for Denver long before John even took over. The flipside to that is the draft being a crapshoot to begin with. But the other thing is (and why i think Chazoe and Wave are pointing to it) is at the time that we drafted Oz no one knew how those players would turn out not even the Seahawks. The Hawks had planned to go with Flynn when they took Wilson and Washington had thought that RGIII was going to be their QB going forward. Both teams just got lucky that Wilson and Cousins ended up out performing the initial starters. So should Seattle and Wash be criticized for taking RGIII and giving Flynn a massive paycheck instead of just settling for Wilson and Cousins? Do you see what im getting at? Its easy for us now to point back and say man, we really missed out on those players but sometimes teams just get lucky. Denver got lucky with guys like Rod Smith, Shannon Sharpe, and Terrell Davis. New England got lucky with a guy like Brady. Its just a bunch of guesswork when going into the draft and you pray and hope you get it right.

I pointed to this the other day in another thread but i remember looking at the completion percentage/accuracy stats when Wilson came out and he was rated #1 in that category with RGIII right behind him at #2. I dont remember where Cousins fell on that list. But if i were to apply that going into this draft than the top 3 QB prospects with the best completion percentages would be Mayfield #1, Jake Browning #3, and Luke Falk #6. Does this really mean though that they will turn out to be the best of the class? Even with Browning and Falk slated to go much later in the draft? Not really. But because of what happened with Wilson and the outcome if i were a GM i might take a lot of that in consideration even though it wont guarantee me anything. The best that Denver fans can hope for is that the organization does a better job going forward. If the Broncos cant right the ship in the next 2-3 years than Elway's job security most certainly will be in jeopardy.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Elway sucks at drafting QBs.

He ranked Osweiler over Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins.

Nice deflection.

Originally Posted by Northman

I dont have a problem with pointing out that the Broncos need to do a better job of scouting/researching/etc when it comes to the draft. But then this has been a pretty big problem for Denver long before John even took over. The flipside to that is the draft being a crapshoot to begin with. But the other thing is (and why i think Chazoe and Wave are pointing to it) is at the time that we drafted Oz no one knew how those players would turn out not even the Seahawks. The Hawks had planned to go with Flynn when they took Wilson and Washington had thought that RGIII was going to be their QB going forward. Both teams just got lucky that Wilson and Cousins ended up out performing the initial starters. So should Seattle and Wash be criticized for taking RGIII and giving Flynn a massive paycheck instead of just settling for Wilson and Cousins? Do you see what im getting at? Its easy for us now to point back and say man, we really missed out on those players but sometimes teams just get lucky. Denver got lucky with guys like Rod Smith, Shannon Sharpe, and Terrell Davis. New England got lucky with a guy like Brady. Its just a bunch of guesswork when going into the draft and you pray and hope you get it right.

I pointed to this the other day in another thread but i remember looking at the completion percentage/accuracy stats when Wilson came out and he was rated #1 in that category with RGIII right behind him at #2. I dont remember where Cousins fell on that list. But if i were to apply that going into this draft than the top 3 QB prospects with the best completion percentages would be Mayfield #1, Jake Browning #3, and Luke Falk #6. Does this really mean though that they will turn out to be the best of the class? Even with Browning and Falk slated to go much later in the draft? Not really. But because of what happened with Wilson and the outcome if i were a GM i might take a lot of that in consideration even though it wont guarantee me anything. The best that Denver fans can hope for is that the organization does a better job going forward. If the Broncos cant right the ship in the next 2-3 years than Elway's job security most certainly will be in jeopardy.

Great point. Even the teams that drafted Cousins and Wilson only drafted them to be backups. Literally no one thought either guy would be a successful starter so soon, if ever.

Originally Posted by Northman

I dont have a problem with pointing out that the Broncos need to do a better job of scouting/researching/etc when it comes to the draft. But then this has been a pretty big problem for Denver long before John even took over. The flipside to that is the draft being a crapshoot to begin with. But the other thing is (and why i think Chazoe and Wave are pointing to it) is at the time that we drafted Oz no one knew how those players would turn out not even the Seahawks. The Hawks had planned to go with Flynn when they took Wilson and Washington had thought that RGIII was going to be their QB going forward. Both teams just got lucky that Wilson and Cousins ended up out performing the initial starters. So should Seattle and Wash be criticized for taking RGIII and giving Flynn a massive paycheck instead of just settling for Wilson and Cousins? Do you see what im getting at? Its easy for us now to point back and say man, we really missed out on those players but sometimes teams just get lucky. Denver got lucky with guys like Rod Smith, Shannon Sharpe, and Terrell Davis. New England got lucky with a guy like Brady. Its just a bunch of guesswork when going into the draft and you pray and hope you get it right.

I pointed to this the other day in another thread but i remember looking at the completion percentage/accuracy stats when Wilson came out and he was rated #1 in that category with RGIII right behind him at #2. I dont remember where Cousins fell on that list. But if i were to apply that going into this draft than the top 3 QB prospects with the best completion percentages would be Mayfield #1, Jake Browning #3, and Luke Falk #6. Does this really mean though that they will turn out to be the best of the class? Even with Browning and Falk slated to go much later in the draft? Not really. But because of what happened with Wilson and the outcome if i were a GM i might take a lot of that in consideration even though it wont guarantee me anything. The best that Denver fans can hope for is that the organization does a better job going forward. If the Broncos cant right the ship in the next 2-3 years than Elway's job security most certainly will be in jeopardy.

There have been big mistakes imo among scouts in getting enamored with QBs stats....in the Big XII.

That whole conference has been a defensive joke for the better part of 20 years.

All of the QBs drafted high from that conference have been ultimate busts.

Sure "seems like" the Big 10 QBs adjust best to the NFL. Who knows why.

One of a few reasons I am turned off by Mayfield

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

Nice deflection.

Shanahan drafted a QB in 2000? Who? You missed that point and you are the one deflecting.

The funny thing is you agree he sucks at drafting QBs and somehow offended or confused by me pointing the QBs he could have selected.

Please, someone bring up the hindsight point again. That was funny.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

There have been big mistakes imo among scouts in getting enamored with QBs stats....in the Big XII.

That whole conference has been a defensive joke for the better part of 20 years.

All of the QBs drafted high from that conference have been ultimate busts.

Sure "seems like" the Big 10 QBs adjust best to the NFL. Who knows why.

One of a few reasons I am turned off by Mayfield

And you may be right, Mayfield may end up being a bust. But if im going by a QB who has the best accuracy it would give me pause because in the end i want a guy like Drew Brees who can hit just about anything he throws at. But, RGIII was rated a very accurate passer and eventually fell out of the league (even though i think injuries hindered him more than play). Its a risk any way you slice it. I was very high on Osweiler coming into the draft that year and even predicted Denver would take him. I thought Oz had the right build to be the next Big Ben but i turned out i was wrong, like big time. So even if it wasnt John as GM and it was me we would of still ended up with Brock. Lmao

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Shanahan drafted a QB in 2000? Who? You missed that point and you are the one deflecting.

The funny thing is you agree he sucks at drafting QBs and somehow offended or confused by me pointing the QBs he could have selected.

Please, someone bring up the hindsight point again. That was funny.

You know, Elway could have picked another position instead of QB, right?. Because that pick was a QB doesn't mean his only other option was another QB.

And just because we didn't pick a QB in 2000 doesn't mean that Brady wouldn't have been a better pick than some of the other positions we drafted.

A much fairer criticism would be to look at impact players at other positions picked around the time we picked Oz/Lynch.

Again, criticizing him because he didn't overdraft a QB by multiple rounds who exceeded everyone's expectations is stupid.

I gave this example earlier, and you ignored it, but Cutler/Ngata is a much more fair example of criticizing taking player x over player y. Ngata was picked right after Cutler, was at more of a position of need than QB for us at the time, and most people were calling for us to pick him before the draft, taking out the hindsight element. That is an example of fair criticism of a draft pick.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

You know, Elway could have picked another position instead of QB, right?. Because that pick was a QB doesn't mean his only other option was another QB.

And just because we didn't pick a QB in 2000 doesn't mean that Brady wouldn't have been a better pick than some of the other positions we drafted.

A much fairer criticism would be to look at impact players at other positions picked around the time we picked Oz/Lynch.

Again, criticizing him because he didn't overdraft a QB by multiple rounds who exceeded everyone's expectations is stupid.

I gave this example earlier, and you ignored it, but Cutler/Ngata is a much more fair example of criticizing taking player x over player y. Ngata was picked right after Cutler, was at more of a position of need than QB for us at the time, and most people were calling for us to pick him before the draft, taking out the hindsight element. That is an example of fair criticism of a draft pick.

All of that is true too. There is always criticisms. Apparently we Can use hindsight, since hindsight is ALL WE HAVE.

I really have no idea the issues you actually have with my post about Wilson and Kirk Cousins. You are actually agreeing with it.

What, you bringing up the Cutler Ngata thing is that different? I was crushed by Broncos fans on the ESPN message boards back then for suggesting that exact same thing.

When it comes to position comparisons, that is also another way to judge a draft. This is done all of the time, and judging a draft 3 to 5 years later is perfectly legit.

Still have no idea what is wrong with pointing out the QBs he could have selected. How exactly is that weird to you guys?

I think Elway's draft mistakes have been the QB's, but that applies to nearly every team. Otherwise I can see about as many "hits" as misses as most other NFL franchises. Paxton was a reactionary reach based on the Osweiler debacle, so I will give him a bit of a pass on that. He has to nail it this year though to at least give us a serviceable QB.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

All of that is true too. There is always criticisms. Apparently we Can use hindsight, since hindsight is ALL WE HAVE.

I really have idea the issues you actually have with my post about Wilson and Kirk Cousins. You are actually agreeing with it.

What, you bringing up the Cutler Ngata thing is that different? I was crushed by Broncos fans on the ESPN message boards back then for suggesting that exact same thing.

When it comes to position comparisons, that is also another way to judge a draft. This is done all of the time, and judging a draft 3 to 5 years later is perfectly legit.

Still have no idea what is wrong with pointing out the QBs he could have selected. How exactly is that weird to you guys?

The difference is that people could see BEFORE the draft that taking Cutler over Ngata was a bad move. Literally NO ONE would have picked Cousins or Wilson over Oz that year. No one. So in that sense, it's kinda lame to say now what an awful move it was. How could Elway have possibly have known? Sometimes players just completely outplay anything that could have been projected about them coming out of college.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

The difference is that people could see BEFORE the draft that taking Cutler over Ngata was a bad move. Literally NO ONE would have picked Cousins or Wilson over Oz that year. No one. So in that sense, it's kinda lame to say now what an awful move it was. How could Elway have possibly have known? Sometimes players just completely outplay anything that could have been projected about them coming out of college.

I thought we agreed he sucks at drafting QBs. If so, how so? Could have sworn we were all in agreement with that.