Thread: Cousins is a pro, but...

Originally Posted by Rick

I have said before and will say again, IF Cousins comes here AND we don't get stupid and get rid of Sanders or DT and we happen to have a TE step up (Butt?), Cousins will have a monster year with us. He will quite possibly be the number 1 QB in stats.

Does that make him the #1 QB in talent? No, but he is already based on the last 3 years a top 5 QB and he has never had this kind of talent at WR.

He's in the worse half in interception rate the last three years. That brings up painful and fresh scars but...otherwise, I agree. It's all about Elway's number though. This is one of the few times I'm all about Elway.

1) He's got the pull and experience to bring in a ringer like Cousins.

2) He's always got a number. For evey player, Elway has a number and if he can't get it, he moves on. Sometimes that's a bad thing but with Cousins, I think it's good. Cousins isn't worth his hype, period. Going full-on emotional, as most here do, he hasn't carried a team on his back anywhere. He's solid and top 5 in important categories but the Redskins will let him go because he hasn't done anything worth top dollar for them (top 10 at best in turnovers and well, not being superman). Staying emotional, we Broncos fans assume we have a better team to surround him with than the Redskins but didn't we get a hell of a wake up this season? Yeah, plenty of close calls could have changed the season but if we have an injury riddled season next year...like the Redskins had this year...

...would we be any better of than them, having Cousins pad his stats while getting us nowhere of importance?

I like him. I'm just saying money and coaching.

He has to come to us knowing he has to work his ass off to earn his 'moderate' salary of 25 mil(ish) - (my estimation of his worth) - and we need to reinvigorate the team around him with better coaching/ leadership.

Originally Posted by Buff

This is my POV in general. I don't want to lose Talib or Sanders, per se, but having talented guys on the outside is a luxury that you can't afford when your front 7 & o-line/QB play is a dumpster fire. Gotta build from the inside out and if we need to reallocate those dollars then that might be a tradeoff we have to live with.

Mostly agreed but I have seen that the entire league is cursed by dumpster fires. We just need a star at right tackle and another right/ left guard. We had the number 5 run game in the NFL. That can't be done with a horrible o-line. We had horrible QBs. While it's mostly (rightly) assumed that it's the o-line that makes the QB, if a QB holds on to long, has no idea what a 'pocket' is, and makes all the wrong calls, what can any o-line do? We sucked hard in the early part of the season but not so much later and I think we have hard positives moving forward. Use of tight ends and running backs is another huge factor. Without going into the details I'm sure you're aware of, we failed in a hard manner on using these positions to accentuate protection and divert attention. Basically, a star right tackle and one great guard and we're there. Along with the other things I mentioned.

Otherwise, I freakin' love Talib but I loved Ward also. I won't fall into the trap of saying that Talib is over the hill...I think he's got years ahead of him as a true badass on other teams (hopefully not in our division)...but he costs too much and we have great replacements.

Sanders is a game maker but not a defense breaker, if that makes sense. He's always reliable but only when we have a QB that can take advantage of his skills. If we have to sacrifice him to get that QB, I'm ok with that. That same QB can turn another receiver into the next Sanders.

Since Cousins announced recently that the Redskins are "all in" on re-signing him they are obviously not just going to let him walk. They will try and re-sign him. Failing that they will either franchise him at $34.6m or else transition tag him and try to match other offers.

Thus, the team that signs him must make an offer the Redskins cannot or will not afford to match. That practically guarantees that he'll be overpaid by a lot.

I don't know how Elway can change that dynamic. He doesn't have a magic wand like Harry Potter to wave and magically the Redskins agree to let Cousins walk.

Perhaps he could work a trade, but that would necessarily involve negotiating with Cousins, and that means paying market rate. And that rate is quickly going to escalate once teams start the bidding war for Cousins. Before that could happen, the Redskins would need to franchise Cousins so he'd be under contract. He might not sign the franchise tender though if he thought the Redskins were trying to trade him. He could reject the contract, sit out and force their hand. They would then have to trade his rights and he could accept or reject the team to which he would be dealt because they would have to work out a long term deal with Cousins as part of any deal.

He's the first completely healthy top 10 QB to hit the FA market, in like ever. Peyton had 4 necks surgeries, so it was a completely different situation. Nobody was sure he would ever play again or how good he'd be if he did. It was a total gamble, which Elway made and it paid off.

So, there's never been any FA like this in the history of FA.

Originally Posted by Cugel

Since Cousins announced recently that the Redskins are "all in" on re-signing him they are obviously not just going to let him walk. They will try and re-sign him. Failing that they will either franchise him at $34.6m or else transition tag him and try to match other offers.

Thus, the team that signs him must make an offer the Redskins cannot or will not afford to match. That practically guarantees that he'll be overpaid by a lot.

I don't know how Elway can change that dynamic. He doesn't have a magic wand like Harry Potter to wave and magically the Redskins agree to let Cousins walk.

Perhaps he could work a trade, but that would necessarily involve negotiating with Cousins, and that means paying market rate. And that rate is quickly going to escalate once teams start the bidding war for Cousins. Before that could happen, the Redskins would need to franchise Cousins so he'd be under contract. He might not sign the franchise tender though if he thought the Redskins were trying to trade him. He could reject the contract, sit out and force their hand. They would then have to trade his rights and he could accept or reject the team to which he would be dealt because they would have to work out a long term deal with Cousins as part of any deal.

He's the first completely healthy top 10 QB to hit the FA market, in like ever. Peyton had 4 necks surgeries, so it was a completely different situation. Nobody was sure he would ever play again or how good he'd be if he did. It was a total gamble, which Elway made and it paid off.

So, there's never been any FA like this in the history of FA.

I've read otherwise but can totally see this as being true, since it's all about rumors at this point. If they do franchise him, or transition him, all good. We shouldn't get into any bidding war and I'm sure Elway will stick to his number, regardless. I have just watched a coupe of interviews where Cousins talks about wanting stability. He has no say about the franchise tag but it is worth noting. Elway has a huuuuuge ego and I do believe he can sell being a Bronco and living in Denver. Washington hasn't done anything, even with Cousins at the helm (a negative on him, IMO), so I don't know they will pay him ridonculous money next year, just because.

Just a thought though. All good if they do. We can move on. If they don't, I would be very interested in seeing how Elway plays the game. Cousins isn't worth breaking the bank and future of the team, since we need money to make a better team around whomever we get at QB.

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

As much as I love him being a Bronco, I agree with you.

He's an awesome player but if nothing else, he can stay and yell at players during practice and at games. Unfortunately, he might throw out his neck doing his animal roar. I do hope he stays as a player though. He's a freakin' beast and offers no bs.

Originally Posted by Rick

I have no issues what so ever in the team spending around 30 mil on Cousins, no matter how many words people type.

I think we can afford it with very little changes to the roster.

Cousins will quite possibly lead the league in yards if we can find a TE to match with DT and Sanders.

Stats, man. Stats mean nothing. Agreed on his potential with us and a great TE but do we want to have a guy that gets great stats, or a guy that can lead us to the SB? Not saying your wrong. Only saying your assessment is incomplete. I'm down if he gets those stats and proves to be the leader that moves through the playoffs, into the SB. We have no proof that he can do that though. Period.

Originally Posted by Ground Control

I've read otherwise but can totally see this as being true, since it's all about rumors at this point. If they do franchise him, or transition him, all good. We shouldn't get into any bidding war and I'm sure Elway will stick to his number, regardless. I have just watched a coupe of interviews where Cousins talks about wanting stability. He has no say about the franchise tag but it is worth noting. Elway has a huuuuuge ego and I do believe he can sell being a Bronco and living in Denver. Washington hasn't done anything, even with Cousins at the helm (a negative on him, IMO), so I don't know they will pay him ridonculous money next year, just because.

Just a thought though. All good if they do. We can move on. If they don't, I would be very interested in seeing how Elway plays the game. Cousins isn't worth breaking the bank and future of the team, since we need money to make a better team around whomever we get at QB.

It would obviously be a bad idea to break the bank to obtain Cousins. But, if he were on this roster the Broncos are a playoff and potentially a SB team. They'd have to get some weapons around him, and they'd have to strengthen the OL, but they would have a top 5 pick in every round to do that with.

But, the news is that Cousins himself says "the Redskins are now all in" (meaning they weren't before.)

That means they are trying to keep him. They will possibly succeed.

Originally Posted by Cugel

It would obviously be a bad idea to break the bank to obtain Cousins. But, if he were on this roster the Broncos are a playoff and potentially a SB team. They'd have to get some weapons around him, and they'd have to strengthen the OL, but they would have a top 5 pick in every round to do that with.

But, the news is that Cousins himself says "the Redskins are now all in" (meaning they weren't before.)

That means they are trying to keep him. They will possibly succeed.

Right on. If they keep him, they should stop playing games, it only hurts them in negotiations with him (outside of the 'franchise' tag). I otherwise agree that we would be a guaranteed playoff team with him. I just don't know how far we would go after that. Could be good. Could be amazing. Could be a shit show. We have little evidence of his performance in the playoffs, outside of his two loses. Not saying that defines him. Just saying we have nothing that defines him as the guy that can handle the championship-stress-stuff. The playoffs are riddled with examples of star QBs that crumbled under that pressure. I do believe Cousins is a potential winner in the post season but I am tired of giving the benefit of the doubt to hopefuls. I know he's more than a hopeful in every aspect but the playoffs. But yeah, playoffs. He's still a great FA choice, I just think he's not a given SB QB and his salary should reflect that.

Maybe a decent contract for a few years, then he can demand more if he succeeds here? 'Course, if Washington keeps him, it's all mute.

We saw over and over guys like Drew Brees playing amazing football and winning even when his running game was totally shut down (against the Panthers). There just aren't that many QBs in the NFL who can take over a game like that: Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, Rogers.

The Broncos aren't getting a guy like that. There is no one like that available unless the unthinkable happens and Drew Brees becomes available. So, the Broncos are left with a choice: overpay for a FA QB who might be good enough to get you into the playoffs and then you'll have to win with great defense (which this team no longer has but Jacksonville now does), or else draft and develop a QB and take your lumps for a few years until the rookie is established.

Some times that works, and some times it doesn't. It appears as if Elway is going to try and do both: draft a rookie QB and also sign a veteran FA. If he can't land Cousins or Teddy Bridgewater, or manage a trade for Alex Smith, he might just sign a lower FA QB like Sam Bradford and go with the rookie as soon as he's ready.

That is a long term strategy though and Elway is notoriously impatient. He wanted to fire Vance Joseph after this season and will certainly do so if the team struggles next year. We could be facing another rebuilding effort in 2019 with an entirely new coaching staff and a bunch of new players.

Unfortunately, that is what routinely happens to elite teams that lose their Hall of Fame QB. They tend to struggle for years after that.

Mike Shanahan was a great coach, but he won 1 playoff game in ten seasons after Elway retired. True, Shanahan the GM had something to do with that, but Elway the GM hasn't been great at drafting either.

Maybe a decent contract for a few years, then he can demand more if he succeeds here? 'Course, if Washington keeps him, it's all mute.

Last edited by Ground Control; Yesterday at 12:13 AM.

I think you meant "moot" but we'll take mute too! Muting all the commentary on Kirk Cousins if he stays in DC will be one plus.

http://gazette.com/woody-paige-getti...rticle/1618710

So this is my arbitrary analysis that means nothing. When you look at a QB and paying him a ton, you want to make sure his pay (factoring in FA making people overpaid) is commensurate with his play. We judge QB's against one another....so here we go. I like to do this in breakdowns throughout the league via divisions, so there's that.

AFCN - Big Ben is the only QB here who is better than KC. Dalton's inconsistent, Flacco is average at best, and Cleveland has no one at the position.

AFCS - Jury's still out on Watson and how he will come back from his injury. Luck is someone I am excluding from analysis because of the controversy around him and his status. Assuming Luck is back and healthy, he's a top five QB, so when we 'know' if he's coming back, he's another QB ahead of KC. Mariota just had a big regression year, and his top end play is good, but Cousins has arguably been great.

AFCW - Rivers is still a monster. Carr, while having an off year, was coming off of an injury and a dysfunctional team. He gets an edge over him. Smith is interesting as he just had a good year, but I'm not certain where he will play next season, and he's still mostly a game manager.

AFCE - Tom Brady is still tops in the league. Cutler/Tannehill out of Mia is underwhelming, Taylor is a solid guy, nothing more (I wouldn't mind seeing him in Denver, though), NY has no one.


So, out of the AFC, Cousins is arguably a top five QB. In this sense, signing him is a boon.

However, the NFC is a different beast, and this is where signing Cousins is a little scary because he doesn't stack up nearly as well against those QB's.

Look at the NFCN - KC is clearly behind both Rodgers and Stafford. Rodgers is a first ballot HoFer in his prime, and Stafford has won a playoff game and had more 'stat god seasons' than KC.

Then, look at the NFCS - Brees is still above KC, Newton is a former MVP and a game changer, Winston, while up and down, is arguably on par with KC (I'd take KC over him) and Matt Ryan is a proven top flight QB. We are only halfway through the NFC and two divisions already sport five superior QB's.

NFCE - Dak is a high end game manager, and while there is a place for that, he's not asked to win games. I can't take a game manager over a full blown QB. Eli is past his prime, but Wentz just went nuts and had a solid rookie year. I can't take Cousins over Wentz.

NFCW - Goff is debatable, but I'll Cousins over Goff even though I took Wentz over Cousins. Why? MOstly because Goff looked so horrid his rookie year, and I think scheme and schedule really did a lot of 'good' for the rookie. It's not the best argument, though. Goff is a talent, he did great, and a lot of rookies are putrid. I still edge KC over him though. The eye test is much kinder to KC and Wentz than it is to Goff. Jimmy G is interesting as all get out, but KC has shown more. We all known Wilson is the real deal.

By my count, Cousins would be the eighth best QB in the NFC. However, he's on par with about half of the guys I ranked above him. I have him ranked as the 12/13th best QB in the league.

However, he's done well in a tough circumstance and I don't think his ceiling has been met. Furthermore, we don't play all the NFC QB's, we're an AFC team and a defensive based team. On top of that, Cousins is on par with over half the list that I deem to be superior, and some of those guys won't be around forever, either.

I say we sign his ass!

Can we just take the transition tag off the table, please? Skins wont transition him because a cap rich team like the Jets or Browns could come in and offer a ridiculous signing bonus that Washington couldn't match and then they'd lose him for nothing. I think there is a (very slim) chance they franchise him again, but the more realistic options are to try to re-sign him long term or let him walk and get draft compensation.

Originally Posted by CoachChaz

Can we just take the transition tag off the table, please? Skins wont transition him because a cap rich team like the Jets or Browns could come in and offer a ridiculous signing bonus that Washington couldn't match and then they'd lose him for nothing. I think there is a (very slim) chance they franchise him again, but the more realistic options are to try to re-sign him long term or let him walk and get draft compensation.

Transition no, but they can still franchise tag him one last time for old times sake.

Originally Posted by CoachChaz

Can we just take the transition tag off the table, please? Skins wont transition him because a cap rich team like the Jets or Browns could come in and offer a ridiculous signing bonus that Washington couldn't match and then they'd lose him for nothing. I think there is a (very slim) chance they franchise him again, but the more realistic options are to try to re-sign him long term or let him walk and get draft compensation.

Would they get a fourth if he was signed by someone else?