Thread: Joseph under microscope as Broncos enter final week of disappointing season

Originally Posted by broncofaninfla

Although I never pull for Denver to lose, I wouldn't mind seeing Pat Mahomes have a good enough game that the Chiefs cut Smith this offseason. I also would like this to be the last game VJ has the title of HC for Denver. Alex Smith would be a good addition as would Dave Toub for Head coach although my preference is Cowher first, Toub second at this point.

As I've pointed out numerous times, Alex Smith is done in KC. He's scheduled to earn $20m next year and they are already trying out Pat Mahomes. The KC fans want him gone last year. And if the Chefs lose in the playoffs again. . . and who expects them to win? then Smith can be cut with no negative blowback from the fans or KC media.

Issue I have with this situation is this: If Vance Joseph was given a chance to keep Wade, it shows his incompetence in letting the guy walk.

Wade Phillips wanted to be the highest or close to the highest paid DC in the league. Elway did not want to pay him that much, and they wanted to keep Joe Woods who was a great candidate to become DC somewhere else if they kept Wade.

So, they cut Wade loose, and promoted Woods. That was all Elway. VJ probably didn't fight him on any of it.

It was partly a $ decision by Elway and partly a decision that they wanted to promote Joe Woods.

You can argue it didn't work out great, but that was Elway's thinking. This wasn't a move VJ had much control over.

Originally Posted by Cugel

Wade Phillips wanted to be the highest or close to the highest paid DC in the league. Elway did not want to pay him that much, and they wanted to keep Joe Woods who was a great candidate to become DC somewhere else if they kept Wade.

So, they cut Wade loose, and promoted Woods. That was all Elway. VJ probably didn't fight him on any of it.

It was partly a $ decision by Elway and partly a decision that they wanted to promote Joe Woods.

You can argue it didn't work out great, but that was Elway's thinking. This wasn't a move VJ had much control over.

He should have paid Wade. Also, if the Broncos did great this year, Joe woods would have been a hot coach and most likely would have been gone anyway.

I cannot help but think Elway was resentful towards the credit Philips was getting for 50.

I have read where Philips was not his original choice, and VJ was, but the Bengala would not let him go.

If all of that is true, then I do tend to think Elway was resentful towards the credit Philips was getting for 50.

That makes me tighten my jaws a little.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Money talks, bullshit walks.

To a guy that could easily retire and never work another day in his life... money is secondary to working with his son and living near his daughter.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

He should have paid Wade. Also, if the Broncos did great this year, Joe woods would have been a hot coach and most likely would have been gone anyway.

I cannot help but think Elway was resentful towards the credit Philips was getting for 50.

I have read where Philips was not his original choice, and VJ was, but the Bengala would not let him go.

If all of that is true, then I do tend to think Elway was resentful towards the credit Philips was getting for 50.

That makes me tighten my jaws a little.

That's nonsense. First of all, Elway didn't give a rip whether Wade Phillips got credit. He didn't want to pay the man. Period. It's easy for you to say "pay him!" but Elway wanted Joe Woods.

As for Woods being gone anyway, not with only 1 year experience as DC on a team with a SB caliber defense. After Buddy Ryan got a job coaching the Eagles in 1986, he was replaced as the Bears defensive coordinator by some dude named Vince Tobin. The Bears finished 14-2 that year but lost in the playoffs. Tobin did not get credit for building the '46 defense.

That made sense. He wouldn't be bringing HOF players Wilbur Marshall or Mike Singletary or Richard Dent or Dan Hampton with him. Same here. Woods wouldn't be bringing Von Miller or Aqib Talib along if someone hired him so how much is due to Wade and how much to the players?

The Broncos defense declined since 2015, largely because they lost talent: HOF DeMarcus Ware retired, Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan left in FA, and TJ Ward wore down and was released. He was not an impact player this year with the Bucs who won't even put him on the field. None of those players was replaced by anyone close to as good. The Broncos didn't get any pass rush from the injured Shane Ray and Shaqil Barrett is just a guy.

This defense is just not as good. So, it's not just on losing Wade. That didn't help but mostly it's the loss of elite players that mattered.

Originally Posted by Davii

To a guy that could easily retire and never work another day in his life... money is secondary to working with his son and living near his daughter.

I would like to believe this was all there was to it - but i do think there was some of Wade's ego, clashing with John's ego and a belief that Woods would be able to do just as good a job.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Would be kind of touching to see Joe Ellis precede Elway into the room and exclaim,

"HEARRrrrrrrrrRSSsssssssss JOHNNY!"


(I might have dated myself there. Some of the young bucks here probably won't get that.)

I'm old enough to totally get it.

Since half the fans were demanding Kubiaks head by the middle of last season, I can only assume Vance Josephs an elite coach: Josephs Broncos have lost more games than Kubiaks last squad won (and the season's not done.) Even though our only two wins in the past three months came when we dumbed down our offense into a "run first and second, pass as last resort, and hope the D can win a close one at the end" model for the sake of its poor quality linemen and green QBs—EXACTLY as Kubiak was condemned for doing the last two years (even when it won our first Lombardi since Elway retired.)

Remember when McCoys return was celebrated because his innovative versatile offense was light years ahead of Kubiaks simplistic, predictable and antiquated offense? Just three years ago Kubiak resurrected the Ravens moribund offense, and three years before that ran a Texans squad consistently and equally lethal on the ground AND through the air, despite NEITHER team having the mobile bootleg QBs on whom Kubiak's supposedly dependent. Just that fast, the NFL evolved so far beyond Kubiaks limited comprehension that only Mike McCoy sophistication could lead us to an elite 3-9 record. Then Musgrave took over to cheers for winning games the exact same way Kubiak was booed out of town for winning a SB.

Here's to 2017: The Year of Being Careful What You Wish for.

Wait, so if Kubiak/Dennison sucked, but Joseph/McCoy sucked harder--you wish for Kubiak/Dennison?

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Wait, so if Kubiak/Dennison sucked, but Joseph/McCoy sucked harder--you wish for Kubiak/Dennison?

Joel has an unhealthy man-crush, stalkerish obsession with Gary Kubiak. Nothing is ever Kubiak’s fault.

It's all about H-Town.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Wait, so if Kubiak/Dennison sucked, but Joseph/McCoy sucked harder--you wish for Kubiak/Dennison?

Kubiak/Dennison didn't suck. They were a consistently and highly successful combo with no less than three straight teams: The '95-'05 Broncos, the '06-'13 Texans and the '14 Ravens. The sole exception was the 2013 Texans, when Schaub had his final flameout and half the team went on IR. All Kubiak did after that was become only the second HC in half a century to win a SB his first season (Siefert doesn't count because he was promoted from OC of a defending champ dynasty, and Gruden doesn't count because all he did was dismantle an offensive playbook he WROTE.)

The Broncos OFFENSE sucked, especially the line that can't protect anyone >1 second and has failed to keep ANY starting RB on his feet more than half a season since 2011—and even then McGahee was so beat up after leading the league in yards AFTER CONTACT that he played only half of the next two seasons before retiring at 33.

I said a year ago that by the middle of the 2017 season we'd all have a new appreciation for Kubiak managing to take us to a SB with an immobile injured Manning behind a Swiss cheese line, then managing a winning season with what amounted to a rookie 7th round QB (much like the rookie 6th rounder who led the Texans to the franchise first playoff win after Schaub went on IR in Week 10 and Leinart joined him the following week.) From a winning season to a top five draft pick? Gimme Kubiback.

Originally Posted by MOtorboat

Joel has an unhealthy man-crush, stalkerish obsession with Gary Kubiak. Nothing is ever Kubiak’s fault.

Its quite funny seeing his obsession. Dude, has been gone from the boards for like ever only to try (and i do mean try) to gloat in hindsight. Its cute.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Would be kind of touching to see Joe Ellis precede Elway into the room and exclaim,

"HEARRrrrrrrrrRSSsssssssss JOHNNY!"


(I might have dated myself there. Some of the young bucks here probably won't get that.)

Originally Posted by Broncos Mtnman

I'm old enough to totally get it.

First thing to come to mind is Ed McMahon introducing Johnny Carson. I use to watch it as a kid, especially with my grandpa. Or, Jack Nicholsan in 'The Shining', which I first saw as a kid.