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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachChaz View Post
    There are plenty of guys in the Hall that meet your standards. I named a few of them a bit back (B. Robinson, O. Smith). These guys were limited offensively, but got in because of superior defensive skills. So, if we can let fringe hitters in...it's perfectly fine to let fringe defenders in. I mean really...how much wear and tear was playing a miserable first base really go to limit a gut like Ortiz???
    You mean like when Barry Bonds referenced it could have added years to his career, and helped him maintain/stay at a higher level of hitting?

    Guys actively want to be DH's for a reason. It's an easier way to play the game. It extends careers. And it extends careers because guys aren't on the field, they're not out there on their feet. They don't have to make the plays. It eliminates the guys from half the game.

    And I just told you that guys can get into the HoF being bad at defense. But at least that's part of the definition/discussion of their career. So the subject matter then goes to what? Comparing DH's to other DH's? That presumes a DH is worthy of going in into the first place, and that's literally the starting point for this entire conversation.

    Why would I vote someone who skipped half the game over someone who was good at hitting and fielding? The Larry Walker example that Buff brought up, for instance. Also, for your examples, you're citing to guys who are considered the best all time at defense.

    There are layers of the conversation being ignored.

    And it's not by me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    You mean like when Barry Bonds referenced it could have added years to his career, and helped him maintain/stay at a higher level of hitting?

    Guys actively want to be DH's for a reason. It's an easier way to play the game. It extends careers. And it extends careers because guys aren't on the field, they're not out there on their feet. They don't have to make the plays. It eliminates the guys from half the game.

    And I just told you that guys can get into the HoF being bad at defense. But at least that's part of the definition/discussion of their career. So the subject matter then goes to what? Comparing DH's to other DH's? That presumes a DH is worthy of going in into the first place, and that's literally the starting point for this entire conversation.

    Why would I vote someone who skipped half the game over someone who was good at hitting and fielding? The Larry Walker example that Buff brought up, for instance. Also, for your examples, you're citing to guys who are considered the best all time at defense.

    There are layers of the conversation being ignored.

    And it's not by me.
    I'll give you the tidbit that it extends careers...but with limits. That being said, referencing a guy like Bonds that played until he was 43...no good. Was he really going to hit at a high level until he was 45 or 46? Even with PED's? Probably not. Hitting depends on high end quick twitch abilities and they deteriorate just like any physical ability.

    As far as guys "wanting" to DH, is goes deeper than extending a career. Most of those guys know they suck in the field and/or they are just plain lazy to begin with. In reality, the reason guys want to DH and get an extra 2 years of baseball out of their bodies comes down to one primary desire...$$$$$$$ So if your argument revolves around a guy being able to play 5-10 years longer by NOT playing the field, you are WAY off base.

    We can also discuss abilities as they pertain to the wear and tear and if it's "easier" to get offensive number when not playing the field. There have beena bunch of studies on this and the results are a big mixed bag. Some players hit better when they play defense...some dont. Some had better years after they became a DH...some didnt. At the end of the day, there is no advantage or disadvantage to a players numbers that can be determined by playing defense. You can either hit...or you cant.

    There is a reason the phrase goes, "The hardest thing to do in sports is hit a round ball with a round bat." Not "catch a round ball with a big mitt".

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  4. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachChaz View Post
    I'll give you the tidbit that it extends careers...but with limits. That being said, referencing a guy like Bonds that played until he was 43...no good. Was he really going to hit at a high level until he was 45 or 46? Even with PED's? Probably not. Hitting depends on high end quick twitch abilities and they deteriorate just like any physical ability.

    As far as guys "wanting" to DH, is goes deeper than extending a career. Most of those guys know they suck in the field and/or they are just plain lazy to begin with. In reality, the reason guys want to DH and get an extra 2 years of baseball out of their bodies comes down to one primary desire...$$$$$$$ So if your argument revolves around a guy being able to play 5-10 years longer by NOT playing the field, you are WAY off base.

    We can also discuss abilities as they pertain to the wear and tear and if it's "easier" to get offensive number when not playing the field. There have beena bunch of studies on this and the results are a big mixed bag. Some players hit better when they play defense...some dont. Some had better years after they became a DH...some didnt. At the end of the day, there is no advantage or disadvantage to a players numbers that can be determined by playing defense. You can either hit...or you cant.

    There is a reason the phrase goes, "The hardest thing to do in sports is hit a round ball with a round bat." Not "catch a round ball with a big mitt".
    He didn't just want to DH in his 40's, though. Frank Thomas extended his career for quite some time, as another example. So when a guy might still be able to hit, but the rest of his body is failing/starting to fail, and he goes to DH, we reach the basis of the argument - he's playing longer than he should, he's ignoring half the game, he's not judged on that part of the game when everyone else is, and the excuse for that is that he's a DH. It's a circular to just go 'well he's a DH and it's a position,' although you're not exactly making that line of argumentation.

    DH's get more than just two years out of it - longer if they are a skilled hitter. And that's also part of it - I never said Edgar couldn't hit. But I am saying Edgar's career overall numbers would look very differently if he had to be on the field, and he agrees with that as that's literally why he went out to DH in the first place. The money part of it is true, but that's not exactly a counterargument, either. Of course the guy who can still hit well is going to get paid.

    And even the studies being a mixed bag isn't that great, either. Did it factor in longevity? Did it factor in injury rates going down when you spend most of the time on the bench? And yeah, hitting is hard, but hitting over the course of a careeer when you have to be on the field is harder. I don't doubt that someone can be a great hitter at 28 as a DH. I just question the legitimacy of his stats at the end of the career, and rewarding him a HoF spot over someone who actually played the rest of the game. Just give the specialty players their own little HoF spot and be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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    A DH who is DHing because he is old has more value to his team as a DH than a 1B. It’s not about “ignoring” half the game, it’s about maximizing where you can best be utilized. I’m with you, Walker should be in the Hall. But by the same token, that doesn’t mean Thome shouldn’t be.

    Edgar Martinez’s wRC+, which is an adjusted stat to show runs created above a replacement player (100 being the replacement player), is 147. That’s the 33rd best ever. Jim Thome was 145, 41st best all time. Walker’s should be in, he has all the offensive numbers to be there and I don’t know why he isn’t, his wRC+ was 140. Rolens was 122.

    DHs add plenty of value, and shouldn’t be excluded from Hall consideration.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

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    King is getting killed here.

    The King is dead.

  8. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    A DH who is DHing because he is old has more value to his team as a DH than a 1B. It’s not about “ignoring” half the game, it’s about maximizing where you can best be utilized. I’m with you, Walker should be in the Hall. But by the same token, that doesn’t mean Thome shouldn’t be.

    Edgar Martinez’s wRC+, which is an adjusted stat to show runs created above a replacement player (100 being the replacement player), is 147. That’s the 33rd best ever. Jim Thome was 145, 41st best all time. Walker’s should be in, he has all the offensive numbers to be there and I don’t know why he isn’t, his wRC+ was 140. Rolens was 122.

    DHs add plenty of value, and shouldn’t be excluded from Hall consideration.
    We're talking about being a HoFer. Sure there's value, but we're talking about them as player. Just give them their own selection spot, one a year maybe, and let the real players who didn't need the bailout get in. They've tainted stats, led tainted careers, and wouldn't be playing as long or acquiring those bloated statistics had the A.L. not made an abortion of a rule. The D.H. was the first performance enhancer, really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  9. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    We're talking about being a HoFer. Sure there's value, but we're talking about them as player. Just give them their own selection spot, one a year maybe, and let the real players who didn't need the bailout get in. They've tainted stats, led tainted careers, and wouldn't be playing as long or acquiring those bloated statistics had the A.L. not made an abortion of a rule. The D.H. was the first performance enhancer, really.
    Lol, no.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

  10. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    Lol, no.
    Comparing them to their peers is different than saying they have value to a team. I never said they didn't. You are flippant and rude and I will not tolerate your shenanigans anymore! To another thread; one that is filled with love!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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    Ozzie Smith ignored half the game. He was a bum.

    That’s the argument you are making. It’s bad.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    Ozzie Smith ignored half the game. He was a bum.

    That’s the argument you are making. It’s bad.
    He only batted because he had to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachChaz View Post
    He only batted because he had to.
    He required opposing teams to only have to worry about 21 outs per game.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    He required opposing teams to only have to worry about 21 outs per game.
    With his astonishing .666 career OPS. the crazy thing is that his career oWAR was higher than his career dWAR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTE View Post
    So King, given the dynamics of your argument I would assume you don't think American League starting pitchers should qualify for the Hall because they don't hit. Therefore, they don't play the game in its intended entirety and their careers are artificially lengthened because they don't have to face the grind of hitting.

    Am I correct to assume you take this position as well?
    Terrible argument. A starting pitcher is involved in, approximately, 30-40 at bats if he lasts six innings. A DH can last the whole game and be involved in 3-5 at bats. No way can you compare the effort of one with the other.
    I miss the old Mile High Stadium.

  17. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    Ozzie Smith ignored half the game. He was a bum.

    That’s the argument you are making. It’s bad.
    I said, numerous time, at least the guys at their position who are bad half the game are judged by it.

    We judged Smith by offense and defense.

    Meanwhile we put guys into the HoF with bloated numbers for the reasons listed above, and over guys who actually played the game.

    Gross.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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    I feel dirty after witnessing the gore in this thread.

    Edgar Martinez is deserving, much in the same way TD was and is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting
    "You know cos I just lost my parents--both my parents died in the same year...to this day, people come up to me and say 'my dad died and that album really meant a lot to me,' which is very nourishing {pats heart} for a songwriter to hear that your songs have a utility beyond just their own solace, that it actually helps other people."

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