Thread: The case against Vance Joseph

Originally Posted by Davii

The absolute cluelessness. A team making the exact same mistakes week in and out, even though the HC says they're going to pay special attention to it, is either not following direction (ie. lost the team) or the coach is not effective in the performance of his duties. Further, to continue with the same plan week in and out that has failed every single time shows a complete lack of self-scouting, and a lack of awareness that is extremely troubling. There is no way that the players in that locker room respect a word this man says anymore. 90% of them played for Kubiak and knew a winning organization, when Kubes spoke they believed what he said because he'd proven that he could succeed and lead the team where it should be. Everything Vance has done has fallen apart, at this point I truly feel he has lost not only the team, but also his coaching staff.

after putting tiny hands mckenzie out there to fumble again, i don't think he can have a single shred of credibility left in the locker room. . . maybe if chris harris fights the dipshit in practice again they will take the hint. . .

Originally Posted by Shazam!

The team is completely out played every week and unprepared. They may not win another game.

Can you be specific? Here is your chance to shine Shazam! Your moment! Hit me with the good stuff, and be specific. Pretend you are arguing it to the court lol.

Originally Posted by dogfish

after putting tiny hands mckenzie out there to fumble again, i don't think he can have a single shred of credibility left in the locker room. . . maybe if chris harris fights the dipshit in practice again they will take the hint. . .

Where do you draw the line? 4 fumbles? 5? 6? He's a rookie, and these PR/KR guys are volatile types. He had real upside.

I can give a coach a pass for loyalty and believing in a player (to a point). All players want that in their coach. Some wiggle to overcome a mistake with improved play going forward. "If coach believes in him, he'll believe in me too."

But I can't give a pass for the turnovers that you had to know were possible--even likely.

At best, Joseph believed in a player too much and in hindsight his belief was proved wrong. At worst, Joseph decided to handicap his team with a -6 turnover ratio on the season.

Which one is it? When was the correct time to shut down project McKenzie?

He should have been cut after the NE game. The fact that he wasn't, and has been put out to do MORE damage, while getting a free pass "He's our guy, that's his job" Is beyond incompetent. The guy isn't a #1 draft pick or something. Only Denver would continue to play, not cut, this guy.

Originally Posted by Tbolt

He should have been cut after the NE game. The fact that he wasn't, and has been put out to do MORE damage, while getting a free pass "He's our guy, that's his job" Is beyond incompetent. The guy isn't a #1 draft pick or something. Only Denver would continue to play, not cut, this guy.

When I find examples of 'good' coaching staffs sticking with a troubled player and it eventually worked out, you'll retract your statement?

Alright, I'll add McKenzie to the list. Let the record show my disdain for using ex post logic on a priori decisions.

The lack of effective in game adjustments is one of VJ's most obvious deficiencies. Our games go from bad to worse weekly now to the point where the confusion is obvious. VJ is lost and over his head and the players don't and won't play hard for him. He just doesn't have what it takes.

Originally Posted by broncofaninfla

The lack of effective in game adjustments

I like it...

Do any in particular come to mind? I think you might be right but I can't think of any examples.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

When I find examples of 'good' coaching staffs sticking with a troubled player and it eventually worked out, you'll retract your statement?

I'll give you an example. From a COMPETENT Broncos coaching staff. Denver drafted RB Chris Howard in the 5th round. Guy was on his way to making the team, started fumbling in Pre-Season, was PROMPTLY cut.

Originally Posted by Tbolt

I'll give you an example. From a COMPETENT Broncos coaching staff. Denver drafted RB Chris Howard in the 5th round. Guy was on his way to making the team, started fumbling in Pre-Season, was PROMPTLY cut.

Should Eric Dickerson have been cut or benched his rookie season? What is the line? You think Deangelo Henderson should still be on the Broncos roster?

There are also examples of rookies who solved their significant fumbling issues and became productive.

Tangible reasons for firing:

- Losing 8 games in a row any time. By an average margin of 16 points per game. With a defense that has 3 healthy All Pros.
- Presiding over a team ranked 31st in turnover margin.
- Presiding over the 31st ranked special teams in the league.
- Firing your offensive coordinator and then performing worse on offense.

I mean you could argue he got saddled with a terrible offense, which he's managed terribly, but you could give him a pass there... But what's the excuse on defense and special teams that have gotten worse under his leadership?

Intangible reasons for firing:

- Not having a PhD level fluency in football. Lots of platitudes and cliches, but not much real insight when you hear from this coach. I assume he's generally knowledgeable, but he hasn't impressed with his ability to convey.
- Those embarrassing timeouts at the end of the Miami game - what in the actual hell are you even doing other than projecting to everyone watching that you are absolutely clueless?
- All the hallmarks of an undisciplined football team. Too many penalties. Too many turnovers. Making the same mistakes over and over again.

Aren't "in game adjustments" handled by the respective coordinator? For all we know, VJ is telling the OC/DC/ST coaches to do X instead of Y, but they end up doing Z.

*playing devils advocate here...

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Where do you draw the line? 4 fumbles? 5? 6?

two. . . no more than two. . .

you remember when that pats player muffed a return on MNF, and belly cut him the next day?

Originally Posted by dogfish

two. . . no more than two. . .

you remember when that pats player muffed a return on MNF, and belly cut him the next day?

LOL - I think he cut him that night! Didn't he have to take a separate flight home or something?

Originally Posted by Buff

Tangible reasons for firing:

- Losing 8 games in a row any time. By an average margin of 16 points per game. With a defense that has 3 healthy All Pros.
- Presiding over a team ranked 31st in turnover margin.
- Presiding over the 31st ranked special teams in the league.
- Firing your offensive coordinator and then performing worse on offense.

I mean you could argue he got saddled with a terrible offense, which he's managed terribly, but you could give him a pass there... But what's the excuse on defense and special teams that have gotten worse under his leadership?

Intangible reasons for firing:

- Not having a PhD level fluency in football. Lots of platitudes and cliches, but not much real insight when you hear from this coach. I assume he's generally knowledgeable, but he hasn't impressed with his ability to convey.
- Those embarrassing timeouts at the end of the Miami game - what in the actual hell are you even doing other than projecting to everyone watching that you are absolutely clueless?
- All the hallmarks of an undisciplined football team. Too many penalties. Too many turnovers. Making the same mistakes over and over again.

I agree with these below and accept them as written.

- Losing 8 games in a row any time. By an average margin of 16 points per game.
- Presiding over the 31st ranked special teams in the league.
- Firing your offensive coordinator and then performing worse on offense.
- Not having a PhD level fluency in football. Lots of platitudes and cliches, but not much real insight when you hear from this coach. I assume he's generally knowledgeable, but he hasn't impressed with his ability to convey.

This one below, of vital importance to many other reasons in that it so strongly relates to winning, seems correct but I'm not sure... Good teams avoid fielding players that create turnovers, true. But the roster is what it is. And whether a fumble is recovered or not is luck.

- Presiding over a team ranked 31st in turnover margin.

The timeouts are odd, perhaps evidence that he's pushing too hard and under too much pressure. Easy to poke fun at, super frustrating to fans, but from a distance you can say 'whatever.'
The penalties, are they heavily penalized? A few particular penalties--delay of game on kickoff, 12 men/10 men--cannot be justified. But those are few. Does the penalty issue rise to such a level that it is grounds for dismissal?
And 'the same mistakes'...which ones?

All the hallmarks of an undisciplined football team. Too many penalties. Too many turnovers. Making the same mistakes over and over again.
Those embarrassing timeouts at the end of the Miami game - what in the actual hell are you even doing other than projecting to everyone watching that you are absolutely clueless?