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Thread: Tanking--worth it?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel View Post
    The difference between winning a SB championship and being an also-ran is having an elite QB.

    The Broncos do not have an elite QB. Some super duper expert posters know exactly whether any of the QBs in the draft will become an elite NFL QB and so conclude that Denver should not try and get one of them.

    Fortunately for the Broncos these fans are not in charge of the team. Instead Elway will do what ever single other NFL team does. IF they don't have a franchise QB, they draft one, usually in the first round, and often in the top 10. About 1/2 of these QBs will fail, as will almost every single QB drafted in the 2nd or later rounds.

    But, success in the NFL is so dependent on having an elite QB that if a team doesn't have one they have zero chance in the long term. Short term success is possible as the Broncos proved in 2015, but no team can win multiple championships without an elite QB.

    The problem is that the Broncos, having won the SB in 2015 tried to replicate that success with Trevor Siemian at QB. That was never going to work. Paxton was supposed to be the Franchise QB but he hasn't been able to get on the field until now and we're seeing why as soon as he does.

    So, it's back to the draft the Broncos must go. This is no longer a championship team that is just lacking a QB. They are lacking an interior pass-rusher, 2 ILBs who can cover TEs, and a CB to replace Talib who is unlikely to be back.

    And the offense is lacking absolutely everything, except Emmanuel Sanders and Ron Leary.

    So, they need a QB, a RT, a RG, a TE, a couple of RBs who can catch passes as well, and a slot WR.

    By my count they need at least 9 new starters and possibly more. You will see that much turnover in the off-season as they dump salary and start rebuilding with new younger players.

    The higher the draft picks, the better. And if that means losing every remaining game, then they will need to lose almost every game. They can't win with this roster anyway.

    So, they might as well rebuild.
    386 words to say the Broncos need a winning QB?
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
    Good point. Some notable evidence of the ability to find the right components, let's not react too strongly to recent developments.
    Elway has hit on most free agents. He has not been able to hit on draft picks on offense. It's a glaring organizational hole at this point. It's the one flaw, and two years post-Manning it's now fairly evident and the results can be seen on the field. I still like Bolles and the receivers. Past that, they need upgrades everywhere. Quarterback is most notable.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
    I don't think tanking is worth it this season. You only tank if there is a lone player worth it. A QB. There are two names when it comes to top of the draft board QBs, Darnold and Rosen, and really it's probably just Rosen. He's not worth it.

    So if you lose out and pick #2 or #3 overall, you probably still won't get the guy unless you sell your soul like Chicago did with SF this year.

    I say you trust the process, build a winning culture, try to win every game. Until you get a winning staff and GM in place, all this tanking business is a pipe dream. I'd rather see the FO and coaching staff get their act together and win games.
    ive seen what a losing culture does to a franchise.

    never wish it on your worst enemies.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    Elway has hit on most free agents. He has not been able to hit on draft picks on offense. It's a glaring organizational hole at this point. It's the one flaw, and two years post-Manning it's now fairly evident and the results can be seen on the field. I still like Bolles and the receivers. Past that, they need upgrades everywhere. Quarterback is most notable.
    Well, Elway has had some misses in the drafts, but his record does not compare with others as
    unfavorably as one might expect. A poster over at MHR put together an article showing this. An
    interesting read.

    BTW, Virgil Green was a good pick for where he was selected, and don't forget Paradis and Julius
    Thomas who were steals where they were selected. And Booker could still turn out fairly decent.
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Well, Elway has had some misses in the drafts, but his record does not compare with others as
    unfavorably as one might expect. A poster over at MHR put together an article showing this. An
    interesting read.

    BTW, Virgil Green was a good pick for where he was selected, and don't forget Paradis and Julius
    Thomas who were steals where they were selected. And Booker could still turn out fairly decent.
    I think Orlando Franklin was also not as bad as many people here thought. But four selections on offense - two of which aren't on the team anymore - in seven drafts isn't good.

    Brock Osweiler, Ronnie Hillman (who I'd argue served his purpose, but wasn't necessarily a great pick), Phillip Blake, Monte Ball, Tavarres King, Vinston Painter, Zac Dysert, Cody Latimer, Ty Sambrailo, Paxton Lynch, Connor McGovern.

    Jury still out on Max Garcia and Booker, and I think Trevor Siemian was a great pick, especially in terms of value/selection position. Unfortunately, finding a backup quarterback in round 7 doesn't really make up for finding two duds in the first/second.

    I'll not judge this year's class yet, but it's not looking good. The third round receiver can't find a spot on a team that desperately needs a wide receiver past the second option. The returnman has been benched, the running back hasn't seen the field. Bolles is the only one that looks OK.

    It's an organizational issue and you can see the results on the field.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    What is this, amateur hour? It's TNF against the Jets and you didn't think you'd need extra booze?

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Elway chose Peyton Manning . . .
    so did like 25 other GMs that year. . . much more important was that peyton chose us. . .


    hawg, i don't think we gotta tank this year, meng. . . we don't have to try to lose, we've been doing just fine as it is. . . although, if lynch is out, it might not hurt to get mckenzie back in there. . .

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  12. #37
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    Tanking is fine, the last time we tanked we got Von Miller. Even if you are not sold on a QB there are other positions that can help this team immensely and the higher the prospect the better the talent that can be taken. Its also not mutually exclusive, you can try to win games and still tank. I mean, we tried to beat the Raiders and still lost so im ok with losing by 7 or less points while tanking for a better draft pick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Elway chose Peyton Manning . . .
    As did every other GM in the league that year that needed a QB. I don't think wanting Peyton Manning proves that Elway can evaluate QBs.

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    That would be like saying Cleveland's GM is a great talent evaluator because he signed LeBron James. It's not exactly going out on a limb to sign the best player in the league.

    (This isn't a knock on Elway at all, just saying that signing a HoF QB doesn't exactly prove he's a great QB evaluator. It just proves he isn't a total idiot.)

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    We're going to tank.
    I just wish we would do it "kicking and screaming" instead of the way we are doing it now.
    A great deal of our kicking and screaming left when Wade tipped out the door.
    Last edited by EastCoastBronco; 11-28-2017 at 08:32 AM.

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    Is it the system, or the players that make a great team?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Is it the system, or the players that make a great team?
    If you look at the gold standard right now which is the New Eng... NEW ENG... *cough* **** it hurts to say that... if you look at the New England Patriots it is a combination of both. They have a system and they find players that work in that system. Aside from Brady and a few others, I wouldn't call the Patriots roster great but they have a system that demands that their players adapt. They can be a run first team one week, then a pass happy fireworks show the next. They not only have players that can adjust and "do their jobs", but also players that buy into the system because it has been working for over a decade now. The Patriots aren't reactive, they cut players after they use them and cycle in new ones without blinking an eye. Even with Brady out they still manage to win on a consistent basis because they can be as complex or as simple as they need to be.

    I don't think you can copy that formula overnight, but I just wish the Broncos had a plan and stuck with it. QB competitions and coaching changes don't help that plan at all. Whoever the QB is next year, start by building an identity around that QB (like we did for Manning his first few years) then adjust as needed (like we did for Manning his last few years). Teams like the Eagles and Rams are enjoying great seasons because they establish an identity and stick with it. That would be a GREAT place to start.

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  19. #43
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    Did anyone ever consider that the players might tank for new coaches?

    It seemed like the Giants players were doing just that early on.


    “Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.” -Winston Churchill

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    Quote Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56 View Post
    Did anyone ever consider that the players might tank for new coaches?

    It seemed like the Giants players were doing just that early on.
    And then they have bad tape and will cease being employed.

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    Losing sucks and after awhile you get used to it. It can’t become the culture. Even being average sucks. Look at the dolphins or jets etc.

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