Thread: Broncos fire OC Mike McCoy

Im sorry but DT is just not the same player since his hip injury. His best days are behind him. That Tebow TD pass was in 2012. If he can be traded, deal him.

Originally Posted by Davii

I actually disagree, for the most part. While there may be some scapegoating I think it's clear McCoy needed to go. VJ was a defensive coach before coming here, as an OC and as a position coach. I believe McCoy was given, more or less, total control of the offensive side of the ball other than Vance saying "hey we need to run more" or whatever during the game. The offense has CLEARLY been the biggest hurdle the Broncos have had to overcome. Special teams is next on the list, and the Defense is the best unit on the team (although looking pretty bad lately). If the rumors we are hearing about the playsheet not being practiced are true there is no doubt McCoy needed to go. About time we see some real consequences to the staff. I don't understand why Olivo still has a job, he needs to be kicked to the curb as well.

Originally Posted by Mike

Kind of. I see it as Elway may be accepting responsibility for a mistake. But offensive production/turnovers is the major problem with the team. Not adapting to the players talent-level (or lack thereof) is a major mark against him. We stubbornly refused to add help to the RT, we stubbornly insisted on running 3 WR sets in which 1) had no benefit/reward on majority of plays, 2) cost the team as the majority of INTs have come out of that set, and 3) resulted in tons of blown up plays because defenders were either on the RB or QB before the play developed.

I still say McCoy should not get credit for Tebow either (as much credit as you can give Tebow anyways). We stubbornly refused to let Tebow be Tebow for the 1st 3 quarters of those games when he played and tried to force him in to something he wasn't. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that we started calling plays that benefitted his play style.

Originally Posted by Tned

Yea, I'm not sure why the claims of scapgoating are being thrown around.

McCoy was brought in to run the offense. The offense has sucked. So, when that happens, one of two actions usually takes place. 1. Fire the OC. 2. Relieve OC of play calling duties. Granted, they could have gone with number two, but since Musgrave will probably have his own scheme, it makes more sense to have a clean break.

McCoy, like Kubiak before him, did not do a good job of creating a gameplan to work within the limitations of talent he has to work with. Lots of teams have bad lines or young QBs or whatever. A good OC will create a scheme to maximize player talent, and work around/cover up player flaws. McCoy did not.

you can't make a good argument that mccoy shouldn't have been fired, and i certainly won't try. . . however, i think it's absolutely and clearly scapegoating. . . the entire group is underperforming badly, management knew it was time for a shakeup. . . mccoy was simply the easiest to replace, and by blaming the offense, they can escape for the moment from accepting blame for the larger failures of the entire team. . . but if it's purely results based, anyone explain to me why olivo wasn't the first to go?

Originally Posted by Davii

Sure, others need to go. What has been the BIGGEST problem? Isn't that where you should start?

i would argue that special teams has honestly been the very worst offender. . . not sure if there's a "rating" we can go to for that, but stats are for nerds anyway. . . i do know that when your unit only touches the ball like a dozen times a game, and still finds ways to screw up multiple times every damn game (including crushing turnovers), that is utterly unacceptable. . . none of mccoy's sins were any more egregious than olivo's squad flat-out giving new england a W. . . here at home, too. . .

more so, i would advance the argument that olivo was given quite a bit more to work with than mccoy. . . brock inherited one of the league's best kickers (see recent contract), and a perfectly solid punter and long snapper-- plus quality 'teams' guys like cody latimer, janovitch, fowler, zaire anderson, and will parks. . . plus they got him a lot in the draft-- carlos henderson, deangelo henderson, mckenzie and brendan langley were all drafted with an eye towards special teams. . . we made it a real focus. . . and olivo has totally bombed, we can't do anything right in that phase. . .

does that mean he's a "bigger problem" than mike mccoy and his failures? i don't know. . . mccoy's responsibility is greater, which makes it hurt worse when his unit is garbage. . . of course, if we're honestly talking about "the biggest problem," i would say number one is we don't have a usable quarterback, and number two is our head coach is a dunce. . . neither of those things are mccoy's fault at all, but he's the one getting the axe today. . . again, i won't cry for him, or miss him. . . his offense was one of the worst in the league, his firing is justified. . . then again, vance joseph's team is one of the worst in the league. . . i would say he should consider himself lucky to still have his job, if mccoy can be justifiably canned after only ten games on the job because his guys aren't getting it done. . . and frankly, vance, like olivo, inherited better overall personnel than mccoy. . . the fact that stuff is coming out about DT is a nice indication of where we stand talent-wise on offense, because he and sanders are clearly the only thing resembling playmakers that we have on that side of the ball. . .

Originally Posted by The Glue Factory

What if McCoy's firing is a message to the rest of the coaches (and by extension, players)? Could it be that Elway had a private conversation with VJ that McCoy needs to be fired and if Elway had to do the firing McCoy may not be the only coach packing their office?

i think this is closer to what actually happened. . . but to me that basically IS scapegoating if we're saying that mike mccoy got fired so that vance joseph didn't have to. . . the whole team is undisciplined and not ready to play, and all three coordinators have been getting the least out of their units. . . those are head coaching issues, but it's easier to fire the OC when you conveniently have an experienced replacement already on hand. . . vance will now be given at least the rest of the year to improve his own sorry performance, and they now have yet another built-in excuse to avoid the embarrassment of putting lynch out there to flail around. . .

Originally Posted by BroncoJoe

He's not the same guy that earned the contract they gave him. I love DT, but he's playing like he's protecting himself. Hardly any YAC, and just seems "different".

I know he's once again on pace for close to 1,000 yards this season, but he just doesn't seem like the same player.

Watching him yesterday, my dad and I both said he has lost a step, not getting separation. Is that due to the vegan diet? I don't know, but both him and Fowler are on this diet, maybe it's given both a case of the dropsies as they've both had some issues with it.

Originally Posted by Northman

Em, i dont know man. I mean shit, the Browns took Brock's contract knowing what he was so a player who has at least been productive like DT could most certainly draw attention for a team that is one player away from making a run.

sure, except probably no one is a fading $12 million dollar receiver away from making a run. . .

the texans had to "throw in" a second round pick to trade brock-- we sure as hell can't be doing anything like that. . . i would like to know if they've approached DT about re-doing the deal. . . that's really where it should start-- cutting him or trading him to free up five million in cap space isn't smart or efficient management. . .

DT isn’t soft, he’s been ridden hard and put away wet since he’s been here. 5 straight seasons over 1000 yards, just tied Shannon Sharpe for second all time receiving TDs by a Bronco. The only Bronco to show up and play with some heart during our Super Bowl blowout. The guy has the mileage and stats to show he’s not “soft”. Is he often knicked up? **** yeah, but how many games has he missed? ZERO in 5 years. How many years spent on IR? None. Oh yeah, he doesn’t do that, he makes big plays and then limps back to the LOS after getting his legs rolled up on or getting his clock cleaned because the QB under-threw him or hung him out to dry on another “jump ball”.

Yeah, lately he goes down easier than when he was 22 years old, but why get lit up and beat down trying to fight for yardage when the rest of the offense sucks donkey balls? He’s still a top 10 WR in this league. Never mistake him for being “soft”.

The Browns took Oz to hit their cap floor and the 2nd, basically bought the 2nd round pick.

Originally Posted by Northman

Thats just it though, its not really a make or break with DT in my opinion. When Calvin Johnson retired everyone (including myself) thought the Lions and Stafford would go in the tank. That didnt happen. When the Skins traded away all of Cousins best receivers i once again thought that he would struggle on offense, again didnt happen and has still been very productive on the offensive side of the ball. Right now, the Rams have a winning record throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Vikings are throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Pats are still throwing to a bunch of nobodies at the WR position. Meanwhile, teams like Arizona (Fitz), Denver (DT), Dallas (Dez) are all struggling to win ballgames even with some of the best WR's in professional football. I just think at this juncture that the WR position is starting to become a lot like the RB position now where its not as necessary to have the ONE talented player and instead have a group of guys who may not be great but are good enough to get the job done.

i think there's a lot of truth to this. . . randy moss, calvin, TO and chad johnson don't have a ring between 'em. . . we even talked about it here when DT and sanders got their extensions-- it absolutely isn't ideal to build your offense from the outside in. . . what were we gonna do, though? it's hard to let guys walk when they're the only talent you have on that side of the ball-- having zero talent is also far from an ideal situation. . . the teams you mentioned all get by with mediocre receivers because they have a quarterback. . .

Originally Posted by Davii

Sure, others need to go. What has been the BIGGEST problem? Isn't that where you should start?

I think you could make the case that special teams has been more of a disaster than the offense, but it's definitely debatable. I wouldn't argue that our biggest problem is offense though. Still, there's a LOT of fault here and no units playing good football. So, I have no problem "starting", as long as it's not "ending" with McCoy.

But I have a feeling McCoy is being offered up as the sacrifice to justify another year with this HC, even if we remain just as impotent the rest of the way.

Originally Posted by Mike

Kind of. I see it as Elway may be accepting responsibility for a mistake. But offensive production/turnovers is the major problem with the team. Not adapting to the players talent-level (or lack thereof) is a major mark against him. We stubbornly refused to add help to the RT, we stubbornly insisted on running 3 WR sets in which 1) had no benefit/reward on majority of plays, 2) cost the team as the majority of INTs have come out of that set, and 3) resulted in tons of blown up plays because defenders were either on the RB or QB before the play developed.

I still say McCoy should not get credit for Tebow either (as much credit as you can give Tebow anyways). We stubbornly refused to let Tebow be Tebow for the 1st 3 quarters of those games when he played and tried to force him in to something he wasn't. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that we started calling plays that benefitted his play style.

the truth. Mccoy was a handicap.

He and his no blocking TE plays drove me nuts.

Originally Posted by dogfish

you can't make a good argument that mccoy shouldn't have been fired, and i certainly won't try. . . however, i think it's absolutely and clearly scapegoating. . . the entire group is underperforming badly, management knew it was time for a shakeup. . . mccoy was simply the easiest to replace, and by blaming the offense, they can escape for the moment from accepting blame for the larger failures of the entire team. . . but if it's purely results based, anyone explain to me why olivo wasn't the first to go?

Absolutely, but we can't get past the fact that the biggest and most consistently failing piece is the offense. Now, I know many try and use the QBs as the scapegoat for missed blocks in the passing and running game, poor TE play, WRs running the wrong routes, receiver drops, etc., but the fact is that the entire unit is under performing and has been most of the year. Other units have had ups and downs and bad games, the offense has only had a few good games, period.

That's on McCoy. Not many teams aren't going to fire the OC at this point. At minimum they would remove his play calling duties, but firing is pretty normal and earned at this point.

i would argue that special teams has honestly been the very worst offender. . . not sure if there's a "rating" we can go to for that, but stats are for nerds anyway. . . i do know that when your unit only touches the ball like a dozen times a game, and still finds ways to screw up multiple times every damn game (including crushing turnovers), that is utterly unacceptable. . . none of mccoy's sins were any more egregious than olivo's squad flat-out giving new england a W. . . here at home, too. . .

The difference is that the offense has done it nearly every game, where ST's has screwed up multiple games, like the defense has had multiple bad games. If the offense was playing even average NFL ball, then it would have been in a position to pickup the special teams unit when it had a bad game, or help out the defense when they were gashed. Instead, ST and D has to play perfect to overcome the offensive inadequacies.

more so, i would advance the argument that olivo was given quite a bit more to work with than mccoy. . . brock inherited one of the league's best kickers (see recent contract), and a perfectly solid punter and long snapper-- plus quality 'teams' guys like cody latimer, janovitch, fowler, zaire anderson, and will parks. . . plus they got him a lot in the draft-- carlos henderson, deangelo henderson, mckenzie and brendan langley were all drafted with an eye towards special teams. . . we made it a real focus. . . and olivo has totally bombed, we can't do anything right in that phase. . .

Let's face it while they've struggled, the two most glaring things have been McManus' early struggles and McKenzies fumbles. McManus is good and you just had to ride it out. When the rookie muffed his 2nd or 3rd or 4th punt, at a certain point continuing to run him out there was ridiculous.

does that mean he's a "bigger problem" than mike mccoy and his failures? i don't know. . . mccoy's responsibility is greater, which makes it hurt worse when his unit is garbage. . . of course, if we're honestly talking about "the biggest problem," i would say number one is we don't have a usable quarterback, and number two is our head coach is a dunce. . . neither of those things are mccoy's fault at all, but he's the one getting the axe today. . . again, i won't cry for him, or miss him. . . his offense was one of the worst in the league, his firing is justified. . . then again, vance joseph's team is one of the worst in the league. . . i would say he should consider himself lucky to still have his job, if mccoy can be justifiably canned after only ten games on the job because his guys aren't getting it done. . . and frankly, vance, like olivo, inherited better overall personnel than mccoy. . . the fact that stuff is coming out about DT is a nice indication of where we stand talent-wise on offense, because he and sanders are clearly the only thing resembling playmakers that we have on that side of the ball. . .

i think this is closer to what actually happened. . . but to me that basically IS scapegoating if we're saying that mike mccoy got fired so that vance joseph didn't have to. . . the whole team is undisciplined and not ready to play, and all three coordinators have been getting the least out of their units. . . those are head coaching issues, but it's easier to fire the OC when you conveniently have an experienced replacement already on hand. . . vance will now be given at least the rest of the year to improve his own sorry performance, and they now have yet another built-in excuse to avoid the embarrassment of putting lynch out there to flail around. . .

Sometimes when we hear hooves, it really is a horse and not unicorns. This is being way overthought. Defense is top five or so (depending on the category) and the offense is in the bottom half to 1/3 (probably worse if you remove what now looks like the 2-3 good games anomaly).

McCoy was not utilizing a scheme that allowed the players to be successful. That's on him. When OC's fail that badly, they get fired.

Now, I think a case for Brock's head also being on the chopping block is totally valid, it's just that the ST failures don't absolve the much, much greater sin, which is the failure to get any offensive production, but worse, offensive cohesion. One of the reasons that VJ had to come out and multiple time say it wasn't all on Trevor or Brock, was because the players were running wrong routes and not where they were supposed to be.

How often have guys like DT or Sanders run wrong routes before? There is a reason they are making rookie mistakes, so you either have to assume that they've massively regressed as 6-8 year vets, or the problem is with McCoy's scheme and player preparation.

Lmao mike McCoy gone sends a big time message.

Don't look for Joseph too be fired. Joseph fired McCoy for good reason. His play calling is just dry. He took nothing from his time with manning and applied it to his scheme. That's where he failed.

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

People keep bringing up Lynch as if he has anything to do with anything. Has anyone outside of media speculation said anything about Lynch starting? This staff is so inept that I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t play at all. VJ is too stupid and Elway is too prideful to call this season a failure and try to move on.

If I were the Broncos I wouldn't make any film available on Lynch, maybe we can trade for a 7th rounder for him. The interception that was almost a pick six should have been 1 or 2 running plays. I'm pretty sure that sealed McCoy's fate right there. I saw us shifting a linebacker out of the running play's gap moments before the snap. Wade would have had the men in the right position. Since Jimmy Johnson's first year was 1-15, I would give Vance another year, but refer to him as last-chance-Vance.

if mccoy's coaching was the main issue, then that should be obvious when musgrave gets better results out of this offense. . . he'll be the third OC to try in the past year and a half, so i'll wish him good luck. . . i won't be holding my breath-- i don't think even a brilliant playcaller could get much out of this group of schlubs. . .

Originally Posted by Northman

Thats just it though, its not really a make or break with DT in my opinion. When Calvin Johnson retired everyone (including myself) thought the Lions and Stafford would go in the tank. That didnt happen. When the Skins traded away all of Cousins best receivers i once again thought that he would struggle on offense, again didnt happen and has still been very productive on the offensive side of the ball. Right now, the Rams have a winning record throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Vikings are throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Pats are still throwing to a bunch of nobodies at the WR position. Meanwhile, teams like Arizona (Fitz), Denver (DT), Dallas (Dez) are all struggling to win ballgames even with some of the best WR's in professional football. I just think at this juncture that the WR position is starting to become a lot like the RB position now where its not as necessary to have the ONE talented player and instead have a group of guys who may not be great but are good enough to get the job done.

Excellent post - and I couldn't agree more with the bolded portion. I hate the whole concept of a supposed "Number 1" receiver - I'd rather field a number of good WR's than a single go-to guy