Thread: Is Vance Joseph a fool?

Not sure about this one but I wasn't privy to his brilliance at Miami. He's allegedly a rising star in the NFL. With the lineup of experienced coaches underneath him, I only thought he would have to be a good cheerleader, organizer, and ego-checker to be successful but that lineup seems to have little clue on how to right the ship, and I imagine some (McCoy) are much harder to influence than the Broncos let on...

So, maybe he's so far a failure on the ego-checker part, as egos (or maybe ids) are running rampant and there is no answer to McCoy's run of failures. I was really excited about him at first. I chose my own narrative, that McCoy was a good OC, but not so much as HC. I still think he is all that but left to his own, he becomes lost in the maze of his own version of what offense should be in the NFL and completely fails to realize that football is maybe much simpler than his brooding mind allows for. He definitely seems to have little grasp of maximizing players, contrary to the hype.

As for the rest of the coaches, no one seems to have an idea on how to make their 'great practices' a reality on the field, so...head coach, anyone?

All of this is understandable when looking at a rookie head coach, and potentially looking at a guy that showed promise but maybe is a better DC than HC. The foolery comes when listening to him in interviews and watching him on the sidelines. He is just as much the deer caught in the headlights as Siemian is when things go (continuously) wrong, when the camera pans to him during the game. As to interviews: Anyone tired of the word 'special' yet? Is it maybe a go-to expression that denotes a lack of imagination? Regardless, optimism has it's place...but complete a denial of reality?

"It isn't a Trevor problem. It's a unit problem". True but this is a dodge, as was obvious. The unit is lead by the QB. When he is breaking down, so will the unit. I love Siemian, and still think he can be a great backup - and even a solid starter, given his former stoicism and control - but not on this team, this year. The Broncos are a team with championship talent and a elite D. There are expectations...and teams that hope to kill such expectations, that are apparently beyond today's Trevor Siemian. Joseph has spent so much time denying the reality of the QB disaster he took on, it seems pretty obvious he was overly hungry for a head coach opportunity. So, he forgot that a head coach is as only good as his QB...and can be dropped as quickly.

"Osweiler did fine". Part of that is OK but you must have qualifiers, given the Broncos situation and Joseph's deteriorating reputation. "Brock did fine, considering this was his first start since last season" works. "Brock did fine enough, given there was a complete breakdown at all phases of our game and his first interception was DT's fault, while his second was under reasonably desperate circumstance...as were all of his late, desperate choices, because we were very desperate when they were made".

"If you look at the game as a whole, we had some great plays...and had more yards...and it was in reach, despite....". Yada, yada. Game after game. Therein lies the exact verbiage that differentiates a true leader among men from a man that is pretending to be such. True leaders don't deflect. They win because they stop talking about the good and mold that into the heart and soul of a team by showing them how to make the good the norm. They look and speak openly about the bad and show their team how to eliminate them as much as possible, knowing that no team or player is perfect but imperfection can lead to championship also. Think of the vet QB that knows he has faults/ weaknesses and uses that to manipulate the enemy into mistakes. Now think of that trait in a HC.

So far, Joseph seems to be little more than Elway's mouthpiece. I give him the benefit of the doubt, in that he might have thought his situation could have been improved early on, and certainly by the trade deadline (Duane Brown, lost to Seattle, smacks of an Elway failure)...but the mindless denials of reality have maybe gone past acceptable false hope, into the level of insecurity that comes from a guy that has no real answers and is too afraid to open up 'all options', including risking his replacement next year with bold action. Realistically though, it's gone beyond the 'all options' approach. The failure is deep and we need that leader among men. I still hold out hope...just like I still hold out hope that Brock is the man he was in 2015. The one that we couldn't have won the SB without. But even Brock is a victim of his circumstances, while Joseph is the master of his (our team's) destiny.

If that means pushing the envelope and challenging Elway, so be it. Maybe that's what Elway is looking for in a head coach? I can't imagine Elway is unaware of his glaring failures in some areas. Will Joseph man-up and be an guiding hand to Elway's player development and his coaches play calling? Or, will he keep saying 'special', like it is a foreshadowing of his placement on the Special Olympics third string team of (whatever sport) coaches? Because, the athletes, coaches, and heroes that participate in the SO clearly have more heart, talent, and drive than VJ has shown so far.

No.

No.

But he needs to step up his presser game and get some ******* wins pronto.

Raised eyebrows from this fellas about Woods as an essential assistant coach and McCoy/Musgrave as 'great staff'. ******* show it, ******s.

Out.

K, I sure hope you're right but why? My post is a lead but I want some hope. How is he the leader we need, and not a pretender?

He is a pretender, but not a fool.

Originally Posted by Ground Control

K, I sure hope you're right but why? My post is a lead but I want some hope. How is he the leader we need, and not a pretender?

I have concerns, but I actually feel some power and presence from the guy. It's hard to know how he is on the day to day in person and in small groups. The little things. It's just a gut thing.

He's not a fool.

He hasn't impressed yet, he's finding his identity and it's painful to watch at times, but after looking at the coaching game, I've come to the conclusion that beef is right. It's a long con.

Give him a bit more rope. I really don't think he'll bring Denver a division championship, but I see why Elway hired him.

I'm more concerned about ownership-level leadership and if Elway can right the ship. He's the Dude in the org right now.

K. First year is a serious bitch on head coaches. Most fail for a long time before they succeed. I just wonder if the qualities he's showing will lead to long term success, and how is he at dealing with reality? Both from above his head and below.

Pretty much agree, otherwise.

Woods isn't essential but he's not bad. His/ Joseph's use of zone is a big change but our talent should be able to handle it. Maybe too much in the first year? Maybe, but they are still at the top in team D. I think Woods is actually the bright spot on the coach list but it's still about leadership. He's taken over a SB winning D and someone else's operations but he's adding his own take on it. We'll see if his ownership causes fraying at the edges to the point of collapse, or moves forward on his personal merits.

Originally Posted by Ground Control

K. First year is a serious bitch on head coaches. Most fail for a long time before they succeed. I just wonder if the qualities he's showing will lead to long term success, and how is he at dealing with reality? Both from above his head and below.

Pretty much agree, otherwise.

Woods isn't essential but he's not bad. His' Joseph's use of zone is a big change but our talent should be able to handle it. Maybe too much in the first year? Maybe, but they are still at the top in team D. I think Woods is actually the bright spot on the coach list but it's still about leadership. He's taken over a SB winning D and someone else's operations but he's adding his own take on it. We'll see if his ownership causes fraying at the edges to the point of collapse, or moves forward on his personal merits.

Yeah, the nonspeak you describe is troubling. Even in pressers I like a guy to have a more forceful presence. He comes across too effete and wishy-washy. Just put your dick on the table already, Vance.

That's a better scenario. A pretender can pretend his way to experience, and eventually success. I know a couple of people that pretended at interviews to learn on the job, and become indispensable masters to the companies that hired them.

A fool, is nothing but. And will never be anything but.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

I've come to the conclusion that beef is right.

Is this what things have come to?

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

Is this what things have come to?

Yeah.

Yep. Totally cool if he's a killer in all other aspects. The quiet spoken one is a badass and all. But as the beginning and end to what he is...not good. We still have some games before final decision. If all comes to complete failure though, I hope for nothing short of admitting to every aspect of team and management failure and his aggressive plan to correct those failures...with aggressive, up-front plans laid out. Otherwise, let the meek and clueless inherit the halls of obscurity. He's got the tools, I think. He just needs to realize he has the power to use them.

First year fear of losing his job will lead to second year strength? Cool.

I'm certainly not an expert. I do hope he gives a clear and powerful message at the end of the year, assuming the players don't make that message themselves by winning their way to the playoffs. If so, all my points are broken, since leadership will have come forward.

Like you said: Put your dick on the table, Joseph. Even if it doesn't happen in public, it has to happen on the field.

I disagree with the premise of your question on the basis that he's clearly not a "fool." I saluted you for the thoughtfulness of the rest of the post.

I would like to see a little more fight out of him in press conference settings, but I'm not sure that solves much. He stuck too long with Siemian, but I don't know if that would have mattered. It's hard to blame a first-year coach for quarterback play we knew was a problem before he took the job, so I'll give him a pass there. I refuse to believe the Broncos job is a bad job, it has to be one of the best gigs in the game even if the talent at quarterback is lacking at any particular moment. It seemed clear to me in the offseason that pecking order for jobs was waiting to see what the Broncos did and then the chips fell from there.

He has made some questionable time management decisions and the fake punt was pretty infamous. I am not of the belief that he should be fired. He needs more time than eight games, or even one season, but there are glaring question marks in his leadership.

He was walking into a powderkeg he didn't cause, though. The gap between the level of play of the offense and the defense was vast long before he arrived and Elway didn't do much to fix it in the offseason other than fire the coach. He didn't upgrade at quarterback and he didn't upgrade on the line, though he tried - and there's some hope at left tackle.

I have a hard time pinning any of this on Joseph at this point, other than maybe some of the attitude, the aloofness publicly and the questionable coaching calls.

MO, I saluted you for reading the rest of that thoughtful post.