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Thread: Aaron Hernandez update

  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by GEM View Post
    So you see how this goes? Not all get it or have it, but there are a number of each that do. It could be that some are predisposed to it and others not, we obviously don't know, there's just not enough information out there yet. As pointed out, in a number of years, these sports may not exist. Boxing is already obsolete. Hockey is down. Football is threatened. Sports in the next 10 years will be a much different picture than today.
    We also don't know what they're like behind closed doors. Or where they will be because of boxing mentally as opposed to where they should have been. You can 'hide' your symptoms for some time, too.

    And I agree with you that the sports will be changing. We can agree, I think, that we have no issues with adults signing waivers and playing football. But you only get to that point if you're a freak, and you played football for awhile...and we know what the trend suggests now in regards to youthful participation.

    On the bright side, I bet that in twenty years we're the best at soccer!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEM View Post
    So you see how this goes? Not all get it or have it, but there are a number of each that do. It could be that some are predisposed to it and others not,
    So then we would be in agreement that because there is a lack of information and the numbers are quite low that there tends to be a pretty big overreaction to all this correct? While i think it is something that needs to be watched and continued to be researched i think its also something that seems (for now) to only happen in rare cases. I think its also something that athletes need to sign off on when they go to sign their contracts. Playing any kind of sport can be risky so the responsibility and onus is on them as to whether or not they decide to partake in such sports.

  3. #78

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    I don’t believe the NFL will stand alone at the top for more than another 10 years. The brain trauma cover up was too much. Their brand isn’t the same to me any more.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    I don’t believe the NFL will stand alone at the top for more than another 10 years. The brain trauma cover up was too much. Their brand isn’t the same to me any more.
    I'm agreeing with you too much.

    I don't trust this. I see your tricks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    Thats not really what im getting at. If people want to be uptight or upset about how the NFL "use" to address this problem than so be it. The point of my post is how often does this happen to athletes, especially with sports like fighting. How many former fighters (or their families) are suing after retirement because of trauma obtained while they were fighting? What is the ratio of players who get CTE in the NFL vs those who do not? And if CTE is that much of a problem as we are lead to believe than why do sports like the NFL, Hockey, and Fighting continue to exist in their current formats? Do physical sports in general start drawing up contracts now that make the players sign a waiver in case of injury? Does what Gem pointed to about players not really lining up to play the sport anymore have a long term effect on the NFL and its existence? Do we as fans/players/owners do the right thing and stop it altogether? Are we overreacting to a small sample size of players who get this or is it a greater problem that needs to shut the sport down?
    Again: Dementia pugilistica is so common in boxing that BOXING IS IN ITS NAME, and has been since the condition was first clinically diagnosed nearly a century ago (ironically, at the very time the infant NFL was formed.) As to why boxing continues to exist anyway, I'm sure part of it's due to the money made off boxing, but part of it has to do with the legal principle of Assumption of Risk continually (if indirectly) referenced in this thread: When people give their INFORMED consent to an action, the likely consequences are their responsibility because they knew before hand that those consequences WERE likely.

    That's what's gotten the NFL, like tobacco companies before it, into a big legal bind: Both went out of their way to not only deny but actively discredit severe medical consequences newly presented to the general public but well known by the businesses for decades. I'm a one-sport guy, so can't speak to hockey, but do find it implausible that medical consequences known to pro boxing since the '20s and to pro football since the '50s remain completely unknown by pro hockey.

    GEM was not the first to raise the point about the effects of all this on youth football, and thus on the future of pro football since youth football IS its future. I'd already referenced in this thread, but also wasn't the first to "discover" it either: It's been a growing issue for a while as more parents become aware of CTE and thus refuse to sign injury waivers, which is well documented. Continuing the previous analogy, young boxers are a much smaller percentage of the population than a century ago, and modern America doesn't collectively hang on every exploit of Holyfield and the rest as their fathers and grandfathers did the careers of Joe Louis nor even Ali.

    Going forward, I expect football, as boxing and smoking before it, to be legally treated as something whose FUTURE participants are presumed aware of its serious health risks because, while FORMERLY concealed, they are NOW widely known. The NFL certainly seems to hope so: That's why it offered 10% of its annual revenue (i.e. BEFORE (other) expenses) in a one-time settlement with all past and present players to make the problem go away. The NFLPA accepted that settlement and (after rejecting a previous figure as too small to cover total medical costs) so did the presiding judge, so that should be that, and future players will be on their own, but knowingly.

    I also expect that to impact the quantity and quality of American athletes playing football at each level, just as the number of new boxers and smokers is steadily falling.

    To your final questions: No, this is not a small subset of NFL players, even if the specimens at the NFL "brain trust" overrepresent victims, and I'm honestly unsure of the proper ethical response as a fan. I increasingly lean toward the view that the PROPER ethical response is clear, and I'm merely reluctant to accept it because pro football has been such a central part of my life practically since birth. I can say it's as no worse than boxing as long as all players know the risks, but I've personally always said that I refuse to watch cockfights, bear baiting, boxing and all other blood sports, so that wouldn't really change my particular ethical duty.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    Again: Dementia pugilistica is so common in boxing that BOXING IS IN ITS NAME, and has been since the condition was first clinically diagnosed nearly a century ago (ironically, at the very time the infant NFL was formed.) As to why boxing continues to exist anyway, I'm sure part of it's due to the money made off boxing, but part of it has to do with the legal principle of Assumption of Risk continually (if indirectly) referenced in this thread: When people give their INFORMED consent to an action, the likely consequences are their responsibility because they knew before hand that those consequences WERE likely.

    That's what's gotten the NFL, like tobacco companies before it, into a big legal bind: Both went out of their way to not only deny but actively discredit severe medical consequences newly presented to the general public but well known by the businesses for decades. I'm a one-sport guy, so can't speak to hockey, but do find it implausible that medical consequences known to pro boxing since the '20s and to pro football since the '50s remain completely unknown by pro hockey.

    GEM was not the first to raise the point about the effects of all this on youth football, and thus on the future of pro football since youth football IS its future. I'd already referenced in this thread, but also wasn't the first to "discover" it either: It's been a growing issue for a while as more parents become aware of CTE and thus refuse to sign injury waivers, which is well documented. Continuing the previous analogy, young boxers are a much smaller percentage of the population than a century ago, and modern America doesn't collectively hang on every exploit of Holyfield and the rest as their fathers and grandfathers did the careers of Joe Louis nor even Ali.

    Going forward, I expect football, as boxing and smoking before it, to be legally treated as something whose FUTURE participants are presumed aware of its serious health risks because, while FORMERLY concealed, they are NOW widely known. The NFL certainly seems to hope so: That's why it offered 10% of its annual revenue (i.e. BEFORE (other) expenses) in a one-time settlement with all past and present players to make the problem go away. The NFLPA accepted that settlement and (after rejecting a previous figure as too small to cover total medical costs) so did the presiding judge, so that should be that, and future players will be on their own, but knowingly.

    I also expect that to impact the quantity and quality of American athletes playing football at each level, just as the number of new boxers and smokers is steadily falling.

    To your final questions: No, this is not a small subset of NFL players, even if the specimens at the NFL "brain trust" overrepresent victims, and I'm honestly unsure of the proper ethical response as a fan. I increasingly lean toward the view that the PROPER ethical response is clear, and I'm merely reluctant to accept it because pro football has been such a central part of my life practically since birth. I can say it's as no worse than boxing as long as all players know the risks, but I've personally always said that I refuse to watch cockfights, bear baiting, boxing and all other blood sports, so that wouldn't really change my particular ethical duty.

    I agree with most of this especially when it comes to personal accountability by the athletes themselves.

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  9. #82

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    Great discussion. Eight out of ten.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  10. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    I agree with most of this especially when it comes to personal accountability by the athletes themselves.
    That's where the NFLs decades of coverup and attempts to discredit and destroy doctors who exposed it make things sticky. Legally, you may have already identified the cutoff date here: Once the NFL recognized it could no longer get around CTE, it moved swiftly to stop the financial (if not the literal) bleeding, so everyone who retired before preseason 2014 is entitled to $1,000,000,000/pre-2014 players, and everyone after is on their own. Expect ~5-10 years of lag as mom and dad find out, then a steep drop in the number of peewee, JHS, HS, college and finally pro football players.

    There's no telling how that will shake out at each level. Many peewee leagues already operate on a shoestring, so this could end many of them. Taxpayer school boards CERTAINLY won't condone, much less organize and promote, group activities that routinely inflict brain damage on children. But for many parts of society, sports are a lot like military enlistment: The only hope young people have of ever affording college, whether or not they meet scholastic admission requirements.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

  11. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    That's where the NFLs decades of coverup and attempts to discredit and destroy doctors who exposed it make things sticky.
    I dont think its sticky personally. As you said those who were listed before the cutoff date will have a chance to get compensation. But now i dont think that will be the case and i think going forward the NFL will do what it can to protect itself from further lawsuits. I think we will see contracts now explaining the risks involved when players go to sign them. Not sure how many players will not want to play but with the current climate being that minorities can make pretty good money in the NFL i can see the league still existing. So far out of the hundreds of players in the NFL only a couple of have actually retired due to fear of developing CTE. Because the NFL is such a cash cow it will probably still be too much of a temptation for players but they will then have to accept their decision to play for money. At the lower level (pee wee through college) it may be a little more dramatic but time will tell. But i wouldnt be shocked if similar protections are put in place for college and high schools so that they cant be held liable for personal choice.

  12. #85

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    Joel, per your MHS, moral discomfort is a good sign of a topic that deserves attention.

    North, I don't think it's sticky now for the pro players. I think it's sticky for youth players and even college players to a certain degree. Stupid heads being made of not invincible stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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  14. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    I dont think its sticky personally. As you said those who were listed before the cutoff date will have a chance to get compensation. But now i dont think that will be the case and i think going forward the NFL will do what it can to protect itself from further lawsuits. I think we will see contracts now explaining the risks involved when players go to sign them. Not sure how many players will not want to play but with the current climate being that minorities can make pretty good money in the NFL i can see the league still existing. So far out of the hundreds of players in the NFL only a couple of have actually retired due to fear of developing CTE. Because the NFL is such a cash cow it will probably still be too much of a temptation for players but they will then have to accept their decision to play for money. At the lower level (pee wee through college) it may be a little more dramatic but time will tell. But i wouldnt be shocked if similar protections are put in place for college and high schools so that they cant be held liable for personal choice.
    It'll certainly be interesting to see what kind of contracts GMs present rookies and vets from now on, and downright FASCINATING to see where the NFLPA comes down, since it shares a vested interest in this cash cowone directly impacting long term healthcare for retired players.

    The problem is the NFL can't remain the cash cow it is if the best athletes decide there are many far safer ways to make an opulent living off their freakish talents. It would hardly be novel for top athletes to reject NFL careers for MLB or the NBA. The difference between gridiron football and association footballs relative popularity here and elsewhere comes down to what most ten-year-olds were doing with their free time a decade ago:

    This threatens the NFL mortally as well as morally, hence its reaction from the start.

    It'll stick around, but won't be anything like what it is or was. As previously referenced, there are many places in America where pro sports and military enlistment are the only hopes (and not just for minorities) of ever having a decent life for ones self or children, so that option will continue to be pursued, just as boxing already is for many of the same reasons. But the military remains a better "percentage play" by orders of magnitude, and as the declining quality and quantity of NFL players inevitably leads to declining NFL revenue, that long shot will become less and less attractive. It only works because the payoff is as huge as the odds against receiving it; when that's no longer true, all incentive to play the longshot vanishes.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

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