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Thread: ESPN Football Power Index - The Broncos are no longer a good football team

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Yes, I guess he showed that his effectiveness decreased when he incurred a shoulder injury so
    severe that it required surgery after the season. Ask Wolfe if he could run as fast after he sprained
    his ankle and whether that makes him fragile.

    But I have already said that his worst trait was his tendency to incur injury. Part of the reason, as
    I have studied his films, is that he played like a fullback, not learning how to slide after a scramble.
    I do hope that Musgrave has worked with him on that. We can't afford for TS to get hurt again.

    Regarding the long ball, we have a before and after situation that has been conveniently ignored
    by his detractors. Early last season, he had me remarking on how accurate he was with his long
    passes. Later in the season, he had me wondering what happened, why he has lost so much of
    that accuracy. When the truth of his injury came out, I knew. But, apparently, a lot of people still
    don't know. Facts don't seem to have much effect with those who don't want to believe . . .
    And he wasn't that effective sans one game before that, nor was he effective for the rest of the season sans one game. He wasn't that great looking in the entire offseason either.

    He complete 14 long passes the entire year. Four of them occurred in one game. So I think you watched the starting QB of the Denver Broncos with a little bit too much love.

    In regards to the injury, It was on his non-throwing arm. No one cares about injuries - Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, Peyton Manning, Brett Favre: excuses are for people who need them. Apparently TS needs the excuses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    He was higher on accuracy because he rarely threw those deep passes. The stat site I linked you to had a lot of those guys ranked higher in overall production on those numbers even though some of them were worse in completion percentage because they threw those passes a lot more. And when compared to his peers, as I pointed out, via the guys that you choose, he was middle or worse than them in TDs, yards, etc. He was ranked third in INTS, iirc. He wasn't ranked well, overall for those types of passes. If TS actually flashed what some propose he did, people would be much higher on our chances as a team. Just about everyone around the league says the guy is a game manager, or serviceable. They saw the same things we did.

    In regards to the rest of his numbers, not only are you still trying to compare him to guys who were rookies, his completion percentage was worse than just about all the first rounders who panned out. So, I'm not, nor is anyone else, clamoring over a sub 60% total over busts, or doing worse than true rookies on completions.

    http://www.nfl.com/player/marcusmari...66/careerstats Compare him second year to second year and see how far away TS was/is. And then, if you want, compare their 'first years starting'. Note that MM beat him in TD's, INTS, % and the like. Then note that had Mariota got hurt, too. TS had him beat in yards, but MM made plays with his legs, and stressed defenses that way.

    Here's another contemporary - http://www.nfl.com/player/carsonwent...59/careerstats

    More TDs, yards, and %. The INT ratio was bad. But Wentz was also asked to do more, and was a true rookie. And PPF had Wentz ahead of TS for overall production. Wentz wins the comparison.

    Here's another one. https://www.pro-football-reference.c...W/WinsJa00.htm

    If you compare their second years, TS gets slaughtered. But, I'll still cede you the 'first year starting' argument. Winston gives me a slightly worse % with an offense built on deeper throws, I might add. But I'll get almost 700 more yards and 4 more TD's.

    The closer we get in that decade to now the worst TS is in comparison. I agree, the numbers don't lie.
    Not going to repost everything in here, but there is a whole thread on this. Take a look at his first year starting vs. Carr's for instance, that's pretty contemporary.

    http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/...ars-since-2007

  3. #33

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    The more I think about this the less I like the idea of releasing TJ. Even if they're right that Justin Simmons is a better cover guy and would take more playing time away from Ward, I'm scared he really is going to wind up on some AFC West Team.

    TJ Ward strikes me as a very bad man to have mad at you. And if the Broncos cut him loose he's going to be totally furious with them for cutting him without reason (he's a pro-bowler still) and determined to screw them over if he can.

    And he can. If he signs with an AFC West rival the Broncos are going to look like such imbeciles! He knows the playbook inside and out, he can tell the other team every defensive play and what defenses the Broncos will run in any given situation. This sort of thing happens all the time of course and the Patriots are famous for signing guys from key rivals just to pump them for information (Spygate ain't nothin' compared with all the other espionage the Patriots get up to).

    But, Ward could wind up giving an impact player to a division rival. That would be bad.

    Take a look at Jamal Charles. He's on a serious mission to destroy the Chiefs this season if he possibly can. That's a big reason he signed here. He wanted to stick it to the Chiefs for cutting him by going to a division rival and then playing against his old team and kicking their ass. As of right now, I'd be real nervous if I were a Chiefs fan because he's looking pretty healthy right about now. They all assume he'll just get hurt because he has the last 2 seasons and they're disappointed in him.

    But, he's healthy now. What if he stays that way? Lookout KC!

    I'd hate for the same thing to happen in reverse with TJ Ward!

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    And he wasn't that effective sans one game before that, nor was he effective for the rest of the season sans one game. He wasn't that great looking in the entire offseason either.

    He complete 14 long passes the entire year. Four of them occurred in one game. So I think you watched the starting QB of the Denver Broncos with a little bit too much love.

    In regards to the injury, It was on his non-throwing arm. No one cares about injuries - Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, Peyton Manning, Brett Favre: excuses are for people who need them. Apparently TS needs the excuses.
    I'm not a Trevor fan and wanted Paxton to take the job. But, TS played with several (4 actually) broken bones in his shoulder. If that was you you'd be crying in the hospital for weeks and have your arm in a sling for months!

    No big deal because it was his non-throwing shoulder that 300 lbs. DL slam into multiple times a game? No big deal that his arm was so injured they had to strap it to his side and inject him with all kinds of drugs so he could go out there and play.

    Personally, I think he was stupid to let them send him out there with that kind of injury - but that's the culture of the NFL. Players are expected to play hurt. But, this was injured. Not hurt.

    I don't particularly honor screwing up your body like that. I don't think it should be permitted. But he did something so painful I could never even think about it. For TS to be able to take the field at all was very surprising. He deserves a ton of credit there for being a true blue warrior for the Broncos.

    And that is a big reason why they liked him so much. It shows in the attitude of Elway & Joseph and all the coaching staff.

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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    And he wasn't that effective sans one game before that, nor was he effective for the rest of the season sans one game. He wasn't that great looking in the entire offseason either.

    He complete 14 long passes the entire year. Four of them occurred in one game. So I think you watched the starting QB of the Denver Broncos with a little bit too much love.

    In regards to the injury, It was on his non-throwing arm. No one cares about injuries - Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, Peyton Manning, Brett Favre: excuses are for people who need them. Apparently TS needs the excuses.
    Your reference to his non-throwing arm shows you have never played quarterback, nor do you
    know the physiology of the forward pass. The arm is just one major aspect of the motion. It
    involves the whole body. And I guess you didn't hear about the surgery or see him walking
    around for several months with his arm in a sling.

    With some of you, I think a sprinter could break his leg, and when he couldn't run, you would
    call it an excuse. Injuries do have an impact on an athlete's effectiveness, depending on the
    nature of the injury.

    But the reason it's not excuses to me is because Trevor played well for a rookie last season.
    You seem to think that he played badly except for two games. As I look over the chart for last
    year, I see a year that McNair, McNabb, or Manning didn't match in their first years, and only
    Favre, among those you listed, had a comparable one. (Elway didn't have as good a first year,
    either, BTW.) All those, incidentally, had a full college experience before joining the NFL. TS
    essentially had one year.

    But it just occurred to me; this is being debated into the ground. I had enough of that through
    the Kyle Orton and Jake Plummer years. I'm backing out of this. I'm tired.
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tned View Post
    Not going to repost everything in here, but there is a whole thread on this. Take a look at his first year starting vs. Carr's for instance, that's pretty contemporary.

    http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/...ars-since-2007
    He grades out favorably in that comparison.

    He grades out horribly comparing his second year to Carr's second year. The closer to 'now' we get the worse TS does. That's horrifying.

    He's up and down on some of those comparisons. And again, that's him as a second year player vs. true rookies, which is never going to be a fair comparison.

    For passer rating - he's ahead of these good or solid QB's, Lucky, Carr, Dalton, and Newton. But, Dak, Cutler, Mariota, and Ryan are ahead of him. Newton and Luck were on worse teams than TS. Dalton had an average team, Carr had...I guess an average team? I wouldn't have said they were putrid. This is a mixed bag.

    On yards he beats out Mariota (missed three games on a run heavy team), Flacco, and Carr. Flacco threw the ball about 20 times a game at most on Baltimore. He compares well to Carr.

    In fact, he's beating out guys who were either horrid, more runners, conservative rookies, etc. He gets crushed by just about everyone else in front of him. This doesn't bode well.

    On YPC, most of the guys below him are horrid - the notable exceptions are Luck, Dalton, Bradford, Carr, and Flacco and Stafford on the two win Lions. He's beaten out by Ryan, Wilson, Mariota, Newton, Dak, and Cutler.

    This is one of the areas that I did feel decent about him on, though. So we're fine here.

    YPG - let's talk about this. This is why I'm insistent in regards to comparing him to the more recent guys than the older veterans. The closer he gets to being compared to WInston, etc, the worse he does.

    Compare him to the Stafford lions, one of the worst teams in recent memories, how does that make much sense? Or compare him to Mariota, who did not throw a lot as a rookie. He was seventh in YPC but so high in YPG because he average 34 attempts a game. Dak, in comparison averaged 28. Go ahead and compare the attempts per game and that'll give you the entire picture, and that picture isn't lovely.

    His TD total wasn't bad, and it's worth noting that I misread Wentz TD total so TS does have him beat out there as well.

    The INT total is nice, but it's still not 2-1.

    With more context, TS looks less impressive in comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Your reference to his non-throwing arm shows you have never played quarterback, nor do you
    know the physiology of the forward pass. The arm is just one major aspect of the motion. It
    involves the whole body. And I guess you didn't hear about the surgery or see him walking
    around for several months with his arm in a sling.

    With some of you, I think a sprinter could break his leg, and when he couldn't run, you would
    call it an excuse. Injuries do have an impact on an athlete's effectiveness, depending on the
    nature of the injury.

    But the reason it's not excuses to me is because Trevor played well for a rookie last season.
    You seem to think that he played badly except for two games. As I look over the chart for last
    year, I see a year that McNair, McNabb, or Manning didn't match in their first years, and only
    Favre, among those you listed, had a comparable one. (Elway didn't have as good a first year,
    either, BTW.) All those, incidentally, had a full college experience before joining the NFL. TS
    essentially had one year.

    But it just occurred to me; this is being debated into the ground. I had enough of that through
    the Kyle Orton and Jake Plummer years. I'm backing out of this. I'm tired.
    I understand phyisology just fine - I think you under appreciate what a QB is expected to do, and overappreciate the injury. You can't compare a sprinter's leg to a non-throwing arm. You need the leg to sprint. The throwing arm isn't the arm that throws the ball, is less important.

    You're now comparing the numbers that TS had last year, in 2017, to guys who played in the league as true rookies in the late 90's or early 2000's. That comparison is very flawed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel View Post
    I'm not a Trevor fan and wanted Paxton to take the job. But, TS played with several (4 actually) broken bones in his shoulder. If that was you you'd be crying in the hospital for weeks and have your arm in a sling for months!

    No big deal because it was his non-throwing shoulder that 300 lbs. DL slam into multiple times a game? No big deal that his arm was so injured they had to strap it to his side and inject him with all kinds of drugs so he could go out there and play.

    Personally, I think he was stupid to let them send him out there with that kind of injury - but that's the culture of the NFL. Players are expected to play hurt. But, this was injured. Not hurt.

    I don't particularly honor screwing up your body like that. I don't think it should be permitted. But he did something so painful I could never even think about it. For TS to be able to take the field at all was very surprising. He deserves a ton of credit there for being a true blue warrior for the Broncos.

    And that is a big reason why they liked him so much. It shows in the attitude of Elway & Joseph and all the coaching staff.
    I didn't know I was a QB for the Broncos! OH **** yes! Gimme the money!

    I didn't say it was no big deal - I said that the expectations don't change because someone's hurt - it's football.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    I understand phyisology just fine - I think you under appreciate what a QB is expected to do, and overappreciate the injury. You can't compare a sprinter's leg to a non-throwing arm. You need the leg to sprint. The throwing arm isn't the arm that throws the ball, is less important.

    You're now comparing the numbers that TS had last year, in 2017, to guys who played in the league as true rookies in the late 90's or early 2000's. That comparison is very flawed.
    Just one final comment: I played the position in college.

    Well . . . played at the position. I wasn't very good. But I do appreciate it more than you think.
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


  11. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Just one final comment: I played the position in college.

    Well . . . played at the position. I wasn't very good. But I do appreciate it more than you think.
    Duly noted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Just one final comment: I played the position in college.

    Well . . . played at the position. I wasn't very good. But I do appreciate it more than you think.
    Yeah but the forward pass hadn't even been invented yet, so can we really count that experience?

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  14. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoWave View Post
    Yeah but the forward pass hadn't even been invented yet, so can we really count that experience?
    Okay, Wave. Better to be a smartass than a dumbass, right?
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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  16. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Okay, Wave. Better to be a smartass than a dumbass, right?
    My client refuses to answer this question!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

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  18. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    My client refuses to answer this question!
    Dictionary definition of "client" is one under your protection.

    Sure you want to do that for Wave?
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


  19. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
    My client refuses to answer this question!
    It doesn't fit, he must acquit!

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