Thread: Why the visceral reactions to Siemian?

Originally Posted by Jaded

T you spelled "Lynch" wrong.

I'm calling BS on that jaded... Lynch if anything is getting people giving it to him easy. Even I am preaching to give him time because it's just game one. Lynch doesn't get anywhere near the level of vitriol that TS does.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

He's basically a modern day Chad Pennington. You can win 10 games with him if all else goes well, but he ain't carrying you to the promised land.

Well, maybe a Pennington with a stronger arm. But Siemian doesn't have to carry the Broncos.
He has a defense for that. All he has to do is to keep the ball from ending up in the opponents'
hands, get a few first downs to give the defense a rest, and score once in a while. If he does
that, he will be providing better quarterbacking than the Broncos had in 2015.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Well, maybe a Pennington with a stronger arm. But Siemian doesn't have to carry the Broncos.
He has a defense for that. All he has to do is to keep the ball from ending up in the opponents'
hands, get a few first downs to give the defense a rest, and score once in a while. If he does
that, he will be providing better quarterbacking than the Broncos had in 2015.

He did those things last year and we missed the playoffs. In today's NFL, "average" at QB just isn't good enough unless you are elite basically everywhere else on the field. In 2015, our defense was so historically good it made up for the awful offense. The defense, while still great, wasn't as historically great last year and the o-line was awful. If the defense returns to 2015 levels and the o-line improves then maybe we have a chance, but otherwise Siemian's play isn't going to cut it.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

He did those things last year and we missed the playoffs. In today's NFL, "average" at QB just isn't good enough unless you are elite basically everywhere else on the field. In 2015, our defense was so historically good it made up for the awful offense. The defense, while still great, wasn't as historically great last year and the o-line was awful. If the defense returns to 2015 levels and the o-line improves then maybe we have a chance, but otherwise Siemian's play isn't going to cut it.

Well, you're making two predictions I'm not ready to make:

1. The defense isn't as good as in 2015
2. Siemian isn't good enough

I think in both cases we need to see more. That's why there's more than one preseason game.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Well, you're making two predictions I'm not ready to make:

1. The defense isn't as good as in 2015
2. Siemian isn't good enough

I think in both cases we need to see more. That's why there's more than one preseason game.

So what you're saying is.....folks need to take a chill pill and let it all play out.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Well, you're making two predictions I'm not ready to make:

1. The defense isn't as good as in 2015
2. Siemian isn't good enough

I think in both cases we need to see more. That's why there's more than one preseason game.

I'm not basing this off of one preseason game. I'm basing if off of the entire 2016 season. The defense was not as historically good last season as in 2015. So as of now, they are not at that level. Could they get back there? Sure, but that's no guarantee. And Siemian was just not good, and basically looked like the same player last night.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

I'm not basing this off of one preseason game. I'm basing if off of the entire 2016 season. The defense was not as historically good last season as in 2015. So as of now, they are not at that level. Could they get back there? Sure, but that's no guarantee. And Siemian was just not good, and basically looked like the same player last night.

I understand. But Siemian last year looked very good, according to reports and what I saw,
until he incurred his injuries, and that's when his play declined. Moreover, it should not be
lost that he had never been on the field in the regular season before last year, so he
essentially was a rookie. Regarding last night, he played 1½ quarters. Even the great
John Elway looked very bad in a lot of first quarters, and not necessarily as a rookie. So
I'm going to need to see more of Siemian's play this preseason to make a judgment.
I think the coaches will, too, which is why they will play him.

Top I get where you are coming from. But, if the situation is carrying a QB, then the QB isn't that great. I remember watching Brady and Big Ben slowly develop. It benefitted them. But it looked like there was something TO develop. And yeah you can find some instances where non-traditional QBs flourish...but exceptions and rules and all that.

As a player, an individual, he's subpar. With little upside. Whatever he does on the field numerous other players can do. He's a red-herring - he looks like he's a benefit to the team because he's so safe but he's not. His production is so low and so poor that even when the dummy who looks like a deer in the headlight matches it we don't ask "why is that production so poor?" and instead ask why the dummy is so bad. Again - he's a god damn red herring. And what bothers me the most is that we will end up investing in a QB whose essentially a 2,500 dollar car to the tune of 5,000 dollars. TS just showed us through camp he's moderately ahead of PL - guess we better put an entire season into a guy who is polished but barely better than the uber talented dummy so we can kill this season (I'd bet with more time with the firsts and what not that PL would overtake him) and retard our chances next year.

TS is a bad QB treated like he's good only because if his cirumstances - it's so obvious and yet everyone misses it.

Originally Posted by topscribe

I understand. But Siemian last year looked very good, according to reports and what I saw,
until he incurred his injuries, and that's when his play declined. Moreover, it should not be
lost that he had never been on the field in the regular season before last year, so he
essentially was a rookie. Regarding last night, he played 1½ quarters. Even the great
John Elway looked very bad in a lot of first quarters, and not necessarily as a rookie. So
I'm going to need to see more of Siemian's play this preseason to make a judgment.
I think the coaches will, too, which is why they will play him.

We obviously have very different definitions of what "very good" entails. Maybe his level of play would have been "very good" 20 or 30 years ago, but that doesn't cut it in today's NFL.

I'm pissed off!!!

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

Top I get where you are coming from. But, if the situation is carrying a QB, then the QB isn't that great. I remember watching Brady and Big Ben slowly develop. It benefitted them. But it looked like there was something TO develop. And yeah you can find some instances where non-traditional QBs flourish...but exceptions and rules and all that.

As a player, an individual, he's subpar. With little upside. Whatever he does on the field numerous other players can do. He's a red-herring - he looks like he's a benefit to the team because he's so safe but he's not. His production is so low and so poor that even when the dummy who looks like a deer in the headlight matches it we don't ask "why is that production so poor?" and instead ask why the dummy is so bad. Again - he's a god damn red herring. And what bothers me the most is that we will end up investing in a QB whose essentially a 2,500 dollar car to the tune of 5,000 dollars. TS just showed us through camp he's moderately ahead of PL - guess we better put an entire season into a guy who is polished but barely better than the uber talented dummy so we can kill this season (I'd bet with more time with the firsts and what not that PL would overtake him) and retard our chances next year.

TS is a bad QB treated like he's good only because if his cirumstances - it's so obvious and yet everyone misses it.

I understand your opinion. And I understand you're not alone in that. But I might ask: What specific traits to you
see in Siemian that causes you to believe he has a low ceiling? He has a strong arm, and he's accurate (when he's
not playing with and injured foot and a sprained shoulder). He's mobile. And he's cerebral. So I'm just curious as
to what it is specifically that causes lay people (I haven't heard that from pundits) to say he has a low ceiling.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

I'm pissed off!!!

Calm down, big man. Breath easy. You have law school to focus on, we don't need you stressed out.

Originally Posted by Nomad

Calm down, big man. Breath easy. You have law school to focus on, we don't need you stressed out.

Our offense hashtagged itself! We are who we thought we were!

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

We obviously have very different definitions of what "very good" entails. Maybe his level of play would have been "very good" 20 or 30 years ago, but that doesn't cut it in today's NFL.

You may be right. I just want to see more this year, is all . . .

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

We obviously have very different definitions of what "very good" entails. Maybe his level of play would have been "very good" 20 or 30 years ago, but that doesn't cut it in today's NFL.

The truth lies between where you and Top are. He was good (not very good) for a first year starter, in the modern NFL. He was far from horrid as some would claim, and he was in no way amazing/great/whatever. If you look at it objectively, the only area where he struggled enough to be concerning was on 3rd down conversions. How much of that was him, how much as Oline, how much play calling and how much was the many 3rd and longs, is impossible to know.

He had one of the best passer ratings on 3rd down, but we all know that that doesn't tell the story because a lot of those completions were to soft areas short of the first down and the receiver was stopped short of the first down. Was that what was called (with a plan to gain after the catch), was that check downs, the only receivers open, all the time the Oline gave???? Who knows, I suspect a bit of all of that, but he's got to figure out how to get first downs. It's what the QB is supposed to do, and he didn't do enough of it.

Take last night, to plays that jump out at me was one where he threw short of the line on crossing route across the middle and the receiver was immediately tackled and there was a second tackler in the area, so that WR had next to zero chance of gaining the line. Another was the throw to Taylor where he had the first down, and gave it up, when he thought he could dart around a defender and make a big play. Both of those killed Broncos drives. One was on Siemian (unless there was no other receiver open and I won't know until I see all-22 film) and the other was on his receiver.

In the box score, it just shows him as 0-2 on 3rd down conversions (for those two plays I mentioned, but his passer rating would be ok on those two. Neither the completions/passer rating or the 0-2 tell the full story, because the truth of what happened lies somewhere in between what the "stats" show on those two plays.