Thread: Jamaall Charles

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

This is just one piece of the puzzle - what is the relationship between his monster production and team wins? You can't isolate one without the other when they are both a big part of the same player.

Fumbles are more pernicious than you care to acknowledge in your soft, lazy analysis.

Consider than the NE Patriots have been league leaders in lowest fumble rates over the past ten years...and the best NFL record over the same period.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/01/05/n...bill-belichick

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Fumbles are more pernicious than you care to acknowledge in your soft, lazy analysis.

Consider than the NE Patriots have been league leaders in lowest fumble rates over the past ten years...and the best NFL record over the same period.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/01/05/n...bill-belichick

Yeah, I'm being soft and lazy by acknowledging that he fumbles while acknowledging how prolific he is on the field. I'm not being lazy - I'm simply stating what we both know is true.

This is how the conversation typically goes 'Hey, Jamaal Charles fumbles a lot.' 'Yeah, and he pumps out a ton of 1,500 yard rushing and receiving like no one's business'.

And that's the conversation. But since you want to keep calling me out over nothing, fine. We could also point out that the Patriots have arguably the best coach ever, a horrible division, arguably the best QB ever, and that same QB rarely throws INT's. We could also point out that they have great special teams, and their fumble rate is arguably much better than it should be since they were caught cheating.

So with those factors involved, your argumentation about the fumbles to prove your point about Charles is soft and lazy. But then again we both already know those aforementioned factors on the Patriots.

So, no, you're not actually being that lazy. Also, since you seemingly really want this discussion, note that while Charles might fumble a lot, most of those fumbles aren't actually turnovers.

Now, you're far too stubborn to ever admit that you're wrong. And you do, for whatever reason, love trying to call me out.

tl;dr - Charles fumbles a lot but he's so prolific and good on the field it doesn't matter and everyone whose ever watched him play knows that.

But thank you for ruining an otherwise fun and joyous thread.

Hawg, it's also worth noting that in spite of his awful fumbling, Charles has been the engine of the Chiefs - who have been pretty good since he's been their starter. The fact that he's played behind some shitty lines also might explain those fumbles. All of this shit, though, common knowledge that pretty much anyone who watches football should know. Good god, man. Good. God.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

tl;dr - Charles fumbles a lot but he's so prolific and good on the field it doesn't matter and everyone whose ever watched him play knows that.

It does matter, and it might outweigh his yardage production if we cared to take a close enough look.

And the idea that 'everyone knows it' is about as convincing as a nation voting Trump into office saying that everyone knows Trump is the best president evah (politics aside). And you didn't even establish that 'everyone knows it.' This is meritless, data-less argument.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

It does matter, and it might outweigh his yardage production if we cared to take a close enough look.

And the idea that 'everyone knows it' is about as convincing as a nation voting Trump into office saying that everyone knows Trump is the best president evah.

Everyone knows that the ******* sun is hot. You want a more academic take on that? You don't have to cite to basic facts. If, presuming, someone watches football/plays fantasy football/cares about football, they're going to know how good Charles is. You're grasping at straws to try to prove a point that doesn't actually exist.

If the winning rate that you're using to prop up your argument means anything, the Chiefs record with him plus the fact that he's been the main threat for years should put you at ease. And going back to the 'hey, we know how good Charles is' line of argumentation, they've won with him...as their main threat.

But then again, I guess people who follow football wouldn't know that Tom Brady wins a lot of SB's, Le'Veon Bell is one of the best backs in the league, Von Miller is a dominant defender, or any long running trends.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

Everyone knows that the ******* sun is hot.

He's a great runner. It's why we have this conversation. If he wasn't exciting, must-see action, we could care less.

It's a valid question--at what point do fumbles outweigh above average production from the RB position? I see no clear answer, but I do see one person arguing that we shouldn't give a damn.

That's willful ignorance.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

He's a great runner. It's why we have this conversation. If he wasn't exciting, must-see action, we could care less.

It's a valid question--at what point do fumbles outweigh above average production from the RB position? I see no clear answer, but I do see one person arguing that we shouldn't give a damn.

That's willful ignorance.

I hate being strawmaned by someone who is smarter than I am, Hawg. It's insulting to both of us. I never said fumbles don't matter, or can't outweigh production. I said his fumbles aren't outweighed by his staggering production, and that his staggering production is well known. Both of those are correct. But please, keep calling me ignorant while grasping at straws desperately.

I am now done with this thread. Which is a shame because god damn did this make my day.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

I hate being strawmaned by someone who is smarter than I am, Hawg. It's insulting to both of us. I never said fumbles don't matter, or can't outweigh production. I said his fumbles aren't outweighed by his staggering production, and that his staggering production is well known. Both of those are correct. But please, keep calling me ignorant while grasping at straws desperately.

I am now done with this thread. Which is a shame because god damn did this make my day.

Reality can be cold water.

You dismiss fumbles without evidence that his production outweighs his fumble rate. It's soft and lazy. It might be correct, but to embrace that position without evidence is hope-think.

Having said all that, I'm just as stoked as you that he's on the roster.

Good. *******. God.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

I see that you're not refuting the notion that everyone knows how good he is, which is central to my argument. That's probably because you know it is common knowledge amongst football fans that his production is top notch. You haven't shown anything, let alone 'reality/cold water'. I guess you just really wanted me to hyperlink his career stats.

Oh, and your Patriots example got torn to shreds, too. I hate you.

The difference between us is that I'm saying 'I don't know that this is a good RB,' and you are saying 'this is a good running back.' You might be right, but I don't see proof. What I do see is an open question that no one has addressed. If you would rather treat a quality inquiry as debate-fodder rather than address it head-on, fine. I'm not mad.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

The difference between us is that I'm saying 'I don't know that this is a good RB,' and you are saying 'this is a good running back.' You might be right, but I don't see proof. What I do see is an open question that no one has addressed. If you would rather treat a quality inquiry as debate-fodder rather than address it head-on, fine. I'm not mad.

This isn't a quality inquiry. It's not an inquiry at all. Are you, or are you not, cognizant of his career and his prolific production? If you are, then you know that his play outweighs it, or at least has.

If you are not, which makes you stand in contrast to the most casual NFL fan, then that's on you.

Does he fumble that much? I don't want per carry, I want per year? How many per year? I've had him in FF as a keeper for 4 years. I'm going to say he's around 6?

But for argument sake let's say 10 per year. At 45 yards per fumble that's 450 yards. He churns out routinely 1500 yards PLUS another 500 or so receiving.....that's 2k all purpose yards, on the routine. Drop out 450 (on an over exaggerated) amount and you have 1550 all purpose yards. More than probably our entire backfield combined!


This was a monster signing. I'll take his occasional fumble. He also won't be playing against our defense 2x a year to cause fumbles either. This signing to me was like drafting Mixon. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, in fact I even texted my friends and have posts how I bet we go after Charles after Marlin Mack and Tarik Cohen went off the board. He made too much sense and he's a badass.

It's safe to fap ladies and gentleman. It's safe to fap.

All I know is whenever we played the chiefs, when the crunch came I wanted then yo hand the ball off to Charles as I always felt like a turnover was a good possibility compared to a chiefs rd

I love this signing, but he definitely cost his team in kansas in our Superbowl year. See roby.....and I think his ball security issues negate a lot of his really positive runs

I hope we pay him every penny of those incentives.

For the record, Marshall caused the fumble, Roby did the scoop and score.

As far as Charles, 2 years ago he was a phenom in this league and had been for the previous 6 years. Adrian Peterson was 1a and Charles was 1b. If he's healthy and doesn't blow out his knee again, he's easily the best all-around RB on our roster. For 900K this year plus incentives this was a great pickup for us. CJ, Ball, and Henderson couldn't carry Charles' pads and will never have the kind of career he has to this point. Every RB fumbles. Even the great Peterson in his prime fumbled. The only reason Charles' fumble is so fresh in our minds is because it was against us and cost them the game.

Until Kelsey and Hill showed up, Charles was their whole offense. I find it hard to believe that pending his health, he can't provide a little spark to our offense.