Thread: I am sure this has been discussed. Dan Reeves HOF? Why not?

Originally Posted by dogfish

seriously. . . he wanted to replace john elway with tommy maddox. . . the only hall reeves belongs in is the Hall of Stupid. . .

This. ^

Not relevant to the thread but Reeves held Elway back big time with his run after run up the gut continually. Elways stats would have been much better if not for Reeves. Not that stats are everything but we would have been a higher scoring offense with someone else calling the plays.
I was soooo pissed we drafted Maddox, there wasn't any reason for it at the time.

Originally Posted by Northman

Two to my knowledge. Denver and Atlanta. He played for Dallas as a player.

I thought he took the Giants, or at least came close.

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

I thought he took the Giants, or at least came close.

No, the Giants he just took back to the playoffs after they were garbage, but they turned right back into garbage immediately after that, so he wound up in Atlanta.

Originally Posted by turftoad

This. ^

Not relevant to the thread but Reeves held Elway back big time with his run after run up the gut continually. Elways stats would have been much better if not for Reeves. Not that stats are everything but we would have been a higher scoring offense with someone else calling the plays.
I was soooo pissed we drafted Maddox, there wasn't any reason for it at the time.

Elway technically passed more with Reeves. Elway's only season with 600 attempts was 1985 with Reeves. The fact is Reeves proved he could win without Elway. He took Chandler and the Falcons to the SB.

Reeves was better than fans give him credit for. I think Mortons best Stats season was 1981, for intents and purpose his last season.

Reeves proved he can coach. I watched all of Denver's games back then and Elway was not exactly as great as many proclaim. Blaming his inconsistent accuracy on Reeves is a bit ridiculous imo.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Elway technically passed more with Reeves. Elway's only season with 600 attempts was 1985 with Reeves. The fact is Reeves proved he could win without Elway. He took Chandler and the Falcons to the SB.

Reeves was better than fans give him credit for. I think Mortons best Stats season was 1981, for intents and purpose his last season.

Reeves proved he can coach. I watched all of Denver's games back then and Elway was not exactly as great as many proclaim. Blaming his inconsistent accuracy on Reeves is a bit ridiculous imo.

I didn't say anything about being inconsistent. I remember the up the middle, up the middle constantly. Reeves was not a good play caller.
Fans were pissed. I was AT every home in 1985. Didn't miss a one.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Elway technically passed more with Reeves. Elway's only season with 600 attempts was 1985 with Reeves. The fact is Reeves proved he could win without Elway. He took Chandler and the Falcons to the SB.

Reeves was better than fans give him credit for. I think Mortons best Stats season was 1981, for intents and purpose his last season.

Reeves proved he can coach. I watched all of Denver's games back then and Elway was not exactly as great as many proclaim. Blaming his inconsistent accuracy on Reeves is a bit ridiculous imo.

Not really. John also had some seasons (playing in 15 or all 16 games) under Reeves where he had under or barely over 500 attempts (504 in 1986, 496 in 1988, 416 in 1989, 502 in 1990, 451 in 1991).

Also, Morton had his best stats because of the system, not the coach. Reeves brought the Dallas offense to Denver, where Morton played from 1965-74.

Actually i remember those years quite well, it was pretty common knowledge that Reeves was a very conservative coach for most the first half of games which is why a lot of Elway's miracles were after he started passing more and making plays with his athleticism. You could say the passing stats during the Reeves era had more to garbage time because teams had been up on the Broncos early. Reeves was notorious for trying to force the run when it simply was not there.

Originally Posted by dogfish

seriously. . . he wanted to replace john elway with tommy maddox. . . the only hall reeves belongs in is the Hall of Stupid. . .

Easy Dog. I heard the HoF is giving out lifetime achievement awards. It's like getting the gold jacket and bust but you don't get a gold jacket or bust.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Like I have said, every player is discussed in trades. If we knew who is discussed, you would probably be shocked. Every player.

How old are you, just curious?

He didn't "discuss" trading Elway.

He actually tried to trade John Elway, even "discussing" such a thing is reason enough to keep him out of HoF.

Originally Posted by Joel

The way I heard it, Shanny manipulated Elway into giving Mr. Bowlen an "it's him or me!" ultimatum. Anyway...

Reeves should've been a first balloter for all the reasons in the OP, but that's no sale in Broncos Country for the same reason 99% of Broncos fans considered beating Reeves' Falcons in the SB a bonus. He's also probably half the reason so many Broncos fans were so critical of Kubiaks tenure.

Reeves tried to trade Elway to the Skins before any ultimatum. Keeping Reeves over Elway sounds like something you'd advocate, please tell me I'm reading that wrong?

Edit:

Oh, that's right, you're a Cowballs fan. I'm reading this just fine.

Originally Posted by Northman

Actually i remember those years quite well, it was pretty common knowledge that Reeves was a very conservative coach for most the first half of games which is why a lot of Elway's miracles were after he started passing more and making plays with his athleticism. You could say the passing stats during the Reeves era had more to garbage time because teams had been up on the Broncos early. Reeves was notorious for trying to force the run when it simply was not there.

The Broncos offense in most of those years were ranked top 10 in offense. Elway was great, did very good things. However, he was a gunslinger. He was very inaccurate. He threw a lot of ints. His int/TD ratio was awful and we can't just blame ALL of that on Reeves. Reeves offenses from the Cowboys, to the Broncos, Giants and Falcons were all pretty effective.

Also, what I can't tell is if people are saying it is better to not be balanced. I can't tell if people are saying the Broncos did not really run the ball as much with shanahan which led to SB success.

You all watched those teams right? In XXXIII Elway had one of the worst statistical games or lowest rating for a SB winning QB.


They were absolutely committed fully to balance. BTW, QB still has not passed 600 times in a season and won the SB in that season. Top 10 passing offenses, only ONE won the SB. That was the 1999 Rams.

So, if Reeves was trying establish balance, is that a good thing or bad thing. Also, if things were that bad how did finish in the top 10 in offense and one of the highest scoring offenses each of those years?

Again, people will say it was ALL Elway. To that I am saying Reeves won without Elway. So, he proved he can win without Elway.

That is the truth.

T

he Broncos offense in most of those years were ranked top 10 in offense. Elway was great, did very good things. However, he was a gunslinger. He was very inaccurate. He threw a lot of ints. His int/TD ratio was awful and we can't just blame ALL of that on Reeves. Reeves offenses from the Cowboys, to the Broncos, Giants and Falcons were all pretty effective.

He wasn't too inaccurate. And, he didn't throw a whole lot of INT's. You are making him out to be a cross between Favre and Tebow.

And, that was Tom Landry's offense, not Reeves. Steve Watson referred to that system as the Edsel system. He said something about how Reeves was more concerned with protection than attacking a defense, and there would be times where only three receivers would go out into the pattern.

In the Sept. 2, 1984 issue of SI (in the extra points section), Ex-49er TE Eason Ramson (traded to Denver in the off-season) basically said how confusing the Dallas system was. Another Bronco player (unidentified) said that there was no rhyme or reason to the offense, and that it was too much memorization. Also, Ronnie Lott said something about how Elway would be one of the passing leaders in the NFL if he was in their offense.

Also, here are the offensive rankings in points and scoring for those Giant and Falcon teams he coached:

Giants

1993: 288 points (18th), 5,145 yards (10th)
1994: 279 points (22nd), 4, 316 yards (28th, or last)
1995: 290 points (24th), 4,483 yards (29th)
1996: 242 points (28th), 3,942 yards (30th)

Falcons

1997: 320 points (18th), 4,716 yards (23rd)
1998: 442 points (4th), 5,487 yards (7th)
1999: 285 points (23rd), 4,542 yards (27th)-J
2000: 252 points (27th), 3,994 yards (30th)
2001: 291 points (23rd), 5,070 yards (15th)
2002: 402 points (5th), 5,535 yards (14th)
2003: 299 points (20th), 4,357 yards (29th)-V

J-Lost Jamal Anderson for season
V-Lost Vick for 12 games

As you can see, not a pretty picture.

Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53

T

He wasn't too inaccurate. And, he didn't throw a whole lot of INT's. You are making him out to be a cross between Favre and Tebow.

And, that was Tom Landry's offense, not Reeves. Steve Watson referred to that system as the Edsel system. He said something about how Reeves was more concerned with protection than attacking a defense, and there would be times where only three receivers would go out into the pattern.

In the Sept. 2, 1984 issue of SI (in the extra points section), Ex-49er TE Eason Ramson (traded to Denver in the off-season) basically said how confusing the Dallas system was. Another Bronco player (unidentified) said that there was no rhyme or reason to the offense, and that it was too much memorization. Also, Ronnie Lott said something about how Elway would be one of the passing leaders in the NFL if he was in their offense.

Also, here are the offensive rankings in points and scoring for those Giant and Falcon teams he coached:

Giants

1993: 288 points (18th), 5,145 yards (10th)
1994: 279 points (22nd), 4, 316 yards (28th, or last)
1995: 290 points (24th), 4,483 yards (29th)
1996: 242 points (28th), 3,942 yards (30th)

Falcons

1997: 320 points (18th), 4,716 yards (23rd)
1998: 442 points (4th), 5,487 yards (7th)
1999: 285 points (23rd), 4,542 yards (27th)-J
2000: 252 points (27th), 3,994 yards (30th)
2001: 291 points (23rd), 5,070 yards (15th)
2002: 402 points (5th), 5,535 yards (14th)
2003: 299 points (20th), 4,357 yards (29th)-V

J-Lost Jamal Anderson for season
V-Lost Vick for 12 games

As you can see, not a pretty picture.

Elway was probably the best QB prospect for the west coast offense. Although he did prove he could successfully run the 70s cowboys Staubach offense, he was best suited for the west coast.

Bill Walsh was actually interested in him. If we (those of uswho are old enough) remember that 1982 49ers team came off of a 3-6 season and Montanas production fell off.

Elway, who thrived at Stanford ran the west coast system there that Walsh had brought to Stanford a few years before. So, he had the nomenclature down, the athletic ability etc etc.

Would have been interesting to see him operate it when he was more physically gifted in his younger years.

I think Reeves gets a bit of a bad rap with those giants teams. He really turned the team around in 1993 after the Giants horrible season of 1992. They lost simms and they did not recover.

The Falcons certainly had success and then they ran into big injury problems.

Reeves proved he could win without Elway. Like I said, if he was attempting to find balance, then that is good. He was not a Marty schottenheimer. He was more dynamic than that.

Lol,

how do you finish in the bottom of the league in offense for most of your tenure elsewhere and then try and say he gets a bad rap? Thats ridiculous and you know it. You made a statement initially that he was in the top 10 with his offenses to which you were proven wrong by another poster only to rurn around and say "yea but". No, it doesnt work like that. Here is his win/loss record after not having Elway as a QB.

4 yrs with Giants.


Win/loss- 30-33




7 Years with Falcons.


Win/Loss- 43-59


Sorry, that is not the epitome of success there. That is what we call "average". I really hate coming down on Reeves this hard but i think people are smoking crack in believing he was actually better than he really was. Using an injury excuse doesnt fly either because every team and every coach faces that. Even Shanahan faced injury issues post Elway and still managed to post a better win/loss record with the Broncos. Like i said, i think Reeves eventually gets in but it will be a very long time before it does happen. One of those reasons is because he was the coach of the Broncos who have a hard enough time just getting players in.

Originally Posted by Northman

Lol,

how do you finish in the bottom of the league in offense for most of your tenure elsewhere and then try and say he gets a bad rap? Thats ridiculous and you know it. You made a statement initially that he was in the top 10 with his offenses to which you were proven wrong by another poster only to rurn around and say "yea but". No, it doesnt work like that. Here is his win/loss record after not having Elway as a QB.

4 yrs with Giants.


Win/loss- 30-33




7 Years with Falcons.


Win/Loss- 43-59


Sorry, that is not the epitome of success there. That is what we call "average". I really hate coming down on Reeves this hard but i think people are smoking crack in believing he was actually better than he really was. Using an injury excuse doesnt fly either because every team and every coach faces that. Even Shanahan faced injury issues post Elway and still managed to post a better win/loss record with the Broncos. Like i said, i think Reeves eventually gets in but it will be a very long time before it does happen. One of those reasons is because he was the coach of the Broncos who have a hard enough time just getting players in.

I said the Broncos were a top 10 offense virtually every year. I said he had a top 10 offense with the Giants with that one year he had with simms and he had success with the falcons.

With the Falcons and giants he had significant success and had significant injuriea. He did have top 10 offenses with them.

I said virtually every year WITH THE BRONCOS. The fact is he won without Elway and he did.