Thread: Troy Renck, Broncos Insider: Siemian shoulder surgery needed to get ‘bigger,’ ‘stronger’

Originally Posted by Joel

The last time a Broncos QB completed a season was 2013, and even then Manning played the back nine with BOTH ankles taped. The QBs aren't the problem.

That said, ANY QB will BECOME a problem—guaranteed—unless we come up with a better "protection scheme" than "tell him to scramble a lot and lift until he can shrug off charging defensive linemen." If that's our solution why not cut all our linemen and spend the cap savings on a new weight set for each QB? And RB.

I do agree that the odds strongly suggest the answer to "which of our current QBs is our franchise guy?" is "neither, but we'll find one eventually." I just hope that by the time we find that guy we've also found five others to keep him upright. Heisman-winning Jim Plunkett was a "bust" in NE until they dumped on a Raiders team that could actually give him some time, and I still contend the biggest difference between David and Derek Carr is blocking, not birth order.

And yet we see Tom Brady win the SB and Russell Wilson take his team into the playoffs despite those teams having WORSE OLs than Denver. Seattle's OL is so bad their fans are happy Denver cut Okung, because they are hoping Seattle brings him back! And they very well might since he's better than either starting T on their roster.

Tom Cable is their OL coach and NFL experts consider him a genius for patching together that band of cast-offs and mis-fits into a functioning OL. Denver is clearly hoping to do the same with all the former Offensive Coordinators they've hired to be offensive assistant coaches for this team. They're certainly not lacking in coaching talent at least!

I think Joel you are unhappy with Elway's chosen business model: the Seahawks model, but he's not going to change it!

After the 2013 SB, Elway started copying Seattle's model, spending all his money on defense. Partly a result of that is that Both the Seahawks and Broncos don't spend a lot of money on the OL. The Seahawks highest paid OL is G Germain Ifedi (I never heard of this guy). He's making $1.8 M.

That's just pitiful. By contrast, the Raiders decided to spend big in FA on their OL. As a result their FA G Kelechi Osemele is making $11,700,000 this year. Of course, this means the Raiders can't go out and pay big FA $ to defensive veterans like the Broncos did with DeMarcus Ware, Aquib Talib, Darien Stewart and T.J. Ward.

Now the Broncos have $40 M in cap space to spend in FA & the draft, but nowhere to spend it. The FA OL this year are mediocre and expensive, and the draft is just a barren wasteland at OL (according to NFL former scouts). Hopefully they find a G in the second round or something, but no player they draft will be much use this season.

I think Joel's head might explode if the Broncos try and get by this season without any FA upgrades on the OL, but that's a very real possibility that they try and "coach up" the players they already have, rather than going out and paying a big contract to a Whitworth or Kelvin Beachum.

That would mean the starting LT just. . . . . . . might . . . . . . . . be . . . . wait for it. . . . . . . Ty Sambrailo!

Originally Posted by Cugel

[Trevor was] a guy who's trying to conceal injury

Nothing about his injury was concealed.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

Nothing about his injury was concealed.

The severity of his injury was certainly concealed. He passed it off all season as a "minor injury". He should have had surgery on it week 5 of the regular season and any normal person would not consider that surgery "elective". It's just nuts to treat your body like that but that's life in the NFL.

It's exactly as if you got in a car wreck, tore up your shoulder and then didn't bother to get surgery to repair it, instead participating in a demolition derby each week for the next three months.

Originally Posted by Cugel

The severity of his injury was certainly concealed. He passed it off all season as a "minor injury". He should have had surgery on it week 5 of the regular season and any normal person would not consider that surgery "elective". It's just nuts to treat your body like that but that's life in the NFL.

It's exactly as if you got in a car wreck, tore up your shoulder and then didn't bother to get surgery to repair it, instead participating in a demolition derby each week for the next three months.

I think you are full of shit.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

I think you are full of shit.

I think the Broncos and TS did what a lot of teams do and did not totally disclose the severity of the injury. It's the typical NFL thing. This isn't devious. I don't know why Cugel seems to be making a big deal out of it.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

I think the Broncos and TS did what a lot of teams do and did not totally disclose the severity of the injury. It's the typical NFL thing. This isn't devious. I don't know why Cugel seems to be making a big deal out of it.

That's what Cugel does. Makes a mountain out of a molehill to reveal a conspiracy that isn't there.

Originally Posted by Cugel

The severity of his injury was certainly concealed. He passed it off all season as a "minor injury". He should have had surgery on it week 5 of the regular season and any normal person would not consider that surgery "elective". It's just nuts to treat your body like that but that's life in the NFL.

It's exactly as if you got in a car wreck, tore up your shoulder and then didn't bother to get surgery to repair it, instead participating in a demolition derby each week for the next three months.

Concealed from who exactly? From the fans? He doesn't have to tell us anything.

You don't think the Broncos staff did a full diagnosis on it? You think he got his evaluation, told them the results and they never verified?

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

I think the Broncos and TS did what a lot of teams do and did not totally disclose the severity of the injury. It's the typical NFL thing. This isn't devious. I don't know why Cugel seems to be making a big deal out of it.

Sounds like it was a pain thing. Elective surgery or let the should we try to heal on own and have pain next year.

But trying to be tough and play through it through the season may or may not bite him in the ass if he made it worse pushing back recovery time.

I seriously doubt that it was a Grade 5 separation. Nobody from the team said that including Trevor. Stokely said that he "heard" it was a Grade 5 and that, if so, it would be a 4-6 month recovery period. But, do a little googling on a Grade 5 and you will see that it involves the scapula separating from the clavicle and then tending to displace downward while the clavicle releases upward with a noticeable bump. My own personal opinion is that the separation was less than a grade 5 and the surgery was indeed "elective". We'll be able to speculate more about this when we see how and when Trevor returns to OTAs, minicamp, etc.

Originally Posted by LawDog

I seriously doubt that it was a Grade 5 separation. Nobody from the team said that including Trevor. Stokely said that he "heard" it was a Grade 5 and that, if so, it would be a 4-6 month recovery period. But, do a little googling on a Grade 5 and you will see that it involves the scapula separating from the clavicle and then tending to displace downward while the clavicle releases upward with a noticeable bump. My own personal opinion is that the separation was less than a grade 5 and the surgery was indeed "elective". We'll be able to speculate more about this when we see how and when Trevor returns to OTAs, minicamp, etc.

I like your words. You use words well.

Originally Posted by Cugel

And yet we see Tom Brady win the SB and Russell Wilson take his team into the playoffs despite those teams having WORSE OLs than Denver.

"All things are possible through" rampant cheating and getting away with it. But I'd actually prefer Joseph NOT turn out to be as big a douche as Belicheat and Carroll, and not just because McDumbass already showed us what happens when even one of Belicheats proteges tries the same crap on a different team.

Even if we ignore all that NONE of our current QBs have the development or experience of even Wilson, much less Brady. Throwing a young raw QBotF out there behind a Swiss cheese line is throwing him to the wolves, guaranteeing that he never has time to learn how to read/diagnose coverages or go through progressions: What he WILL learn is how to desperately get rid of the ball in <2 seconds with little regard for WHERE (or to WHOM) it goes and be terrified of his OWN "shadow." All that does for a young QB is PERMANENTLY CRIPPLE him both mentally and physically.

A

Originally Posted by LawDog

I seriously doubt that it was a Grade 5 separation. Nobody from the team said that including Trevor. Stokely said that he "heard" it was a Grade 5 and that, if so, it would be a 4-6 month recovery period. But, do a little googling on a Grade 5 and you will see that it involves the scapula separating from the clavicle and then tending to displace downward while the clavicle releases upward with a noticeable bump. My own personal opinion is that the separation was less than a grade 5 and the surgery was indeed "elective". We'll be able to speculate more about this when we see how and when Trevor returns to OTAs, minicamp, etc.

One of the players posted a picture of Trevor last year that showed the displacement you're describing here.

Patriots Oline was ranked 5th in the NFL last year. That is not worse than Denver's. lol

Originally Posted by Northman

Patriots Oline was ranked 5th in the NFL last year. That is not worse than Denver's. lol

To be fair, their interior line went to Hell after Koppen and Mankins left. Solder's always been steady, and Vollmer was too before the injury bug got him, but inside it was a mess, and that hurts Brady more than edge rushers for the same reason it didn't Manning. HOWEVER, NE* responded by spending three 4ths and a 3rd, not on OTs (though they spent a 4th there too) but on Gs and Cs. Result:

Bryan Stork won a SB as a starting rookie C,
Shaq Mason has started 25 games in 2 years, winning a SB Ring of his own a few weeks ago
Joe Thuney started every game this year as a rookie, and added his own SB Ring

I'm not saying they're instant All Pros; Atlanta got to Brady more than most folks remember in the SB (even and especially in the 4th) and it was usually inside.

Starting LT Nate Solder was, of course, the #17 overall pick in 2011, while RT was a sufficiently lower priority to wait until #58 to take Vollmer in 2009. Neither was drafted in the 3rd or 4th though: Because very few starting quality OTs stick around as long as starting quality Gs.

Originally Posted by Joel

To be fair, their interior line went to Hell after Koppen and Mankins left. Solder's always been steady, and Vollmer was too before the injury bug got him, but inside it was a mess, and that hurts Brady more than edge rushers for the same reason it didn't Manning. HOWEVER, NE* responded by spending three 4ths and a 3rd, not on OTs (though they spent a 4th there too) but on Gs and Cs. Result:

Bryan Stork won a SB as a starting rookie C,
Shaq Mason has started 25 games in 2 years, winning a SB Ring of his own a few weeks ago
Joe Thuney started every game this year as a rookie, and added his own SB Ring

I'm not saying they're instant All Pros; Atlanta got to Brady more than most folks remember in the SB (even and especially in the 4th) and it was usually inside.

Starting LT Nate Solder was, of course, the #17 overall pick in 2011, while RT was a sufficiently lower priority to wait until #58 to take Vollmer in 2009. Neither was drafted in the 3rd or 4th though: Because very few starting quality OTs stick around as long as starting quality Gs.

No, just stop it already Joel. There is no comparison to be made between NE's Oline and Denver's. Its night and day. Sorry.