Thread: Terrell Davis is now a Hall of Famer

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

Randy Moss impacted the game more than any wide receiver I've ever seen.

Double coverage all day. No double coverage and you almost always get sodomized. If he had the right attitude he'd have better numbers than Rice.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

Joel, his production led him to being highly ranked all-time in TDs and yards. He was outrageously productive in the NFL for a very, very, very long time. The guys in yesteryear played in a different era, but I'm going to be honest, no one cares about the guys who played in the 50's and the 60's. Yes, Packers fans love to rattle on about how awesome Hudson was and the Browns have to cling to Jim Brown as the best RB ever.

We don't even value the guys in the 70's that highly. Mel Blount was a beastly cornerback in his day, but he got away with mauling people, not coverage skill. He was essentially Talib, more violent, less talented, and had no coverage skills. Anyone think those LB's from the Steel Curtain could make it today? I mean they were all roided up, unintelligent, and one trick ponies. It's not just an improvement in athletic ability from a physical standpoint -the game requires far more intellect now, and to be honest, we see so many guys flame out on that side of the game that benefit of the doubt does not go to the old school guys.

Given that '70s secondaries not only could get away with that but were ENCOURAGED to do it, rewarded with All Pro selections and SB Rings, how good do you think the RECEIVERS had to be earn THEIR All Pro selections and "numbers"? Bearing in mind that they had 2 less games/year to match TOs career stats.

Terrell Owens is SECOND ALL-TIME IN RECEIVING YDS; fantastic—Fitzgerald will pass him within two years (maybe one.) Marshall may too if he ever finds a decent QB. Antonio Brown's well over halfway there in half as many seasons, and has a good QB (if not a great one.) Julio Jones is well on pace, and DT not far behind it.

All of which makes Jerry Rices 22,895 yds in 19 seasons that much more amazing; no one's even close—yet....

Hutson retired with every career receiving record in the book, but by the time the book I keep citing was released the only career record he had left was receiving TDs, which it further noted Largent was due to break the very next season (it actually took 2, after which he retired a SINGLE TD ahead,) and that "Barring injury, Steve Largent will retire holding the career receiving marks in catches, yards and TDs, but Hutson could tell him: Sic transit gloria."

The old saying is, "records were made to be broken," and that's ESPECIALLY true of passing and receiving records in a league that's passed more and more EVERY year of the 112 years since the forward pass was legalized. Less than 30 years after Largent DID retire with all those career receiving records, he's currently 18th in yards, 29th in receptions and tied with Tim Brown for 9th in TDs. Tim Brown, you may recall, played 16-game seasons for 16 years (i.e. not 10-game seasons for 10 years, like Hutson.) That is, he played 2½X more games than Hutson, and finished with all of ONE more TD, and most people think that was still pretty good; good enough for Canton anyway (though it took him 6 years to get there.)

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

As far as changing the game goes, TO was one of the frontrunners for big YAC WR's. It didn't hurt that he ran a 4.4, ran good routes, broke tackles like gangbusters and was a redzone beast. Sweet, Hutson apparently ran crazy routes - but no coach helped him? He dominated a time of the game where they only ran the ball. Wanna guess what happens if you go back in time and put TO on that field? He'd be bigger than some of the offensive lineman, FFS.

Even Curly Lambeau didn't help Hutson much. That's what I'm saying: The things that made him great were SELF-TAUGHT, yet so effective they revolutionized the game. Hutson didn't run crazy routes, he ran virtually all the same routes as receivers 80 years later—but he ran them FIRST because HE CREATED MOST OF THEM.

Name a single innovation TO made that every WR and every COACH copied and will keep right on copying for the next 80 years because it's THAT effective. We ooh and ahh over OBJs one-handers, Tyrees helmet-catches, Moss trapping balls against his thigh as he's sprawling on the ground: Thank Hutson again.

Mainly because Arnie Herber had a cannon but loaded it with grapeshot (the story is his teammates bet him he couldn't throw a ball the length of the field with the roll, so he cocked back and threw it all the way to the 15—with such a steep angle it bounced BACKWARD exactly as they'd expected.)

He was just the extreme case though; passing in those "put it up for grabs days" was a rare and usually desperate play where the QB just launched it downfield and hoped someone from the right team would run under it. So Hutson spent hours practicing how to catch that crap with opponents knocking the crap out of him the same way HE knocked the crap out of THEM when they tried to pass. And in between he had nice long chats with Arnie along the lines of "hey, how 'bout if you actually try to AIM; maybe we can even both agree where I'll run and you'll throw BEFORE the snap...."

Yes, it's a very different world: Respect the guys who ACCOMPLISHED that sea change.

Oh, and Jim Brown's the only RB in history to average >5 yds/att and 100/gm for his WHOLE CAREER (Barrys 99.8 yd/gm average is as close as you come to 100 without getting there, but Jim Brown did it with 4 yds to spare.) "Look at his numbers," indeed; he was All Pro and led the league in rushing 8/9 seasons, and led in TDs 5 of them. You mentioned "dominance" before; not to keep flogging a book, but THGoFs "Rumblings in the Pantheon" chapter (to which this discussion couldn't help but lead) literally begins its section on modern RBs by saying,

We've been telling you that Jim Brown dominated his era, so we're not surprised to find him at the top of this list. By the time all the votes are in, Payton will probably slip in just behind.

That's kind of a callback joke because they began their "The Theory of Relativity" chapter (which is literally all about how to normalize cross-era comparisons by seeing how much each player did or didn't "dominate" his contemporaries) by referencing an NFL Live show where callers were asked to pay 50 cents to vote Brown, Payton, Sayers or OJ the GoAT, interviewed each of them during the show, and every last one of them tacitly but indisputably clear Brown was the only real choice.

Payton won easily, leading the authors to grouse that "daddy who has to pay the phone bill won't pay to call, but junior just calls and calls because daddy pays the phone bill," and they 1) didn't know Jim Brown from Adam but 2) were watching Sweetness play RIGHT NOW. Not that they excused other generations, further noting that "if they'd polled only retirement homes, Red Grange would've won hands down."

Point being: No one has "dominated" pro football like Jim Brown since Jim Thorpe vs. the World a century ago.

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

Randy Moss impacted the game more than any wide receiver I've ever seen.

When Mike Tice was coach of the Vikings he found that if he got ball into Moss' hands about 8 or more times a game the Vikings chanes of winning dramatically improved.

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

Randy Moss impacted the game more than any wide receiver I've ever seen.

Calvin would have been a close second if he could stay healthy.

Despite the election of running back Terrell Davis to the Class of 2017, the Denver Broncos remain woefully under represented in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. There are five who played significant portions of their careers with Denver … or three fewer than there are Super Bowl appearances by the Broncos.

And that makes no sense.

Don’t ask me to explain it. I can’t. Neither can the other 47 other Hall-of-Fame voters. There are qualified Broncos out there – with former players Karl Mecklenburg, Steve Atwater, Randy Gradishar, Lionel Taylor and Louis Wright, as well as former coach Dan Reeves, at the head of the class — but no one outside of Davis can get a sniff.

Granted, there have been three modern-era Broncos (Gary Zimmerman, Shannon Sharpe and Davis) inducted since John Elway was a first-ballot choice in 2004, but there were none before that (Floyd Little was a senior choice in 2010). You heard me. Zippety-do-dah. Davis wasn’t exactly a favorite two weeks ago to break the Denver curse — not with a career cut short by injury — but he did, and, at the Talk of Fame Network, we thought that should count for something.

In fact, we thought it should give Davis — not selectors — a chance to nominate the next Hall-of-Fame inductee. So, when we spoke to him this week, we offered Davis a free Hall pass to give anyone who’s not in there; essentially, to get his take on what player or coach he thinks belongs in Canton who isn’t already there.

“One free pass?” he asked.

Correct.

“Steve Atwater,” he said.

Good choice.

rest, plus video - http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/ter...nto-hall-fame/

Atwater was a monster...loved watching that dude play

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

Atwater was a monster...loved watching that dude play

He was the first defensive player I ever liked.

The problem with TO are a few things. We cannot just simply go by the numbers. This era the numbers are tremondously skewed. We should not just ignore that several teams got rid of him during his prime. He was benched by Andy Reid.

If we are going to use numbers to justify everything, then Dilfer deserves to be in the HOF. Well, his numbers are better than Namath's numbers. So much for numbers.

Hey, Rod Smiths numbers are comparable to Michael Irvin's numbers. Rod Smith could be the best undrafted FA ever. He is in the discussion with best undrafted players imo. He actually won rings. In 13 year career, he never missed one off season work out. Not one. Not even the volunteer workouts or the ones where only the rookies showed up. He never complained, or threw teammates under the bus. I know I am pissing in the wind with that one. Just saying.

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

Atwater was a monster...loved watching that dude play

He was fun to watch. I will never forget the sack on Farve early in Super Bowl XXXII and the hit on the receiver that knock himself and two other players out.

I never liked TO but the dude is a HOFer.

Atwater belongs in the Hall. His performance in SB XXXII is one of the most criminally underrated defensive performances in SB history. He was everywhere in that game and by the end the Packers wanted nothing to do with playing ball in his backfield. Atwater was a member of the all decade team for the 90s wasn't he? How does he not get more HOF consideration.

Originally Posted by chazoe60

I never liked TO but the dude is a HOFer.

Atwater belongs in the Hall. His performance in SB XXXII is one of the most criminally underrated defensive performances in SB history. He was everywhere in that game and by the end the Packers wanted nothing to do with playing ball in his backfield. Atwater was a member of the all decade team for the 90s wasn't he? How does he not get more HOF consideration.

Brooks and Freeman had alligator arms in the 4th quarter

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

The problem with TO are a few things. We cannot just simply go by the numbers. This era the numbers are tremondously skewed. We should not just ignore that several teams got rid of him during his prime. He was benched by Andy Reid.

If we are going to use numbers to justify everything, then Dilfer deserves to be in the HOF. Well, his numbers are better than Namath's numbers. So much for numbers.

Hey, Rod Smiths numbers are comparable to Michael Irvin's numbers. Rod Smith could be the best undrafted FA ever. He is in the discussion with best undrafted players imo. He actually won rings. In 13 year career, he never missed one off season work out. Not one. Not even the volunteer workouts or the ones where only the rookies showed up. He never complained, or threw teammates under the bus. I know I am pissing in the wind with that one. Just saying.

Rod's my all-time favorite Bronco, but Night Train Lane's still the all-time best UDFA. Setting the NFL season interception record (14) as a ROOKIE would be amazing for a #1 overall pick, but STILL HOLDING IT 65 YEARS LATER is stunning. Especially since seasons were only TWELVE games then, but went to 14 in 1960 and 16 in 1978. The most since is Lester "Stickum" Hayes in 1980, but even he fell one short of matching the undrafted rookie.

Though I certainly concur that the NFLs current marketing strategy and resulting rules inflate receiving numbers more than any time in the leagues nearly century of play. The only way to adjust for stats across eras is to see how each players stats compared to the league average or league best each season they played. It's easy and, far more importantly, anything else is apples and oranges (ESPECIALLY for WRs and QBs.)

Originally Posted by Joel

Rod's my all-time favorite Bronco, but Night Train Lane's still the all-time best UDFA. Setting the NFL season interception record (14) as a ROOKIE would be amazing for a #1 overall pick, but STILL HOLDING IT 65 YEARS LATER is stunning. Especially since seasons were only TWELVE games then, but went to 14 in 1960 and 16 in 1978. The most since is Lester "Stickum" Hayes in 1980, but even he fell one short of matching the undrafted rookie.

Though I certainly concur that the NFLs current marketing strategy and resulting rules inflate receiving numbers more than any time in the leagues nearly century of play. The only way to adjust for stats across eras is to see how each players stats compared to the league average or league best each season they played. It's easy and, far more importantly, anything else is apples and oranges (ESPECIALLY for WRs and QBs.)

Yeah, ok. Night Train, good pick there. In the SB era though, it is hard to find a better, more accomplished wide out than Smith as an UNDRAFTED player. Smith, was the juxtaposed opposite of a teammate to TO.

I do see why the committee are apprehensive and that I believe includes hall of famers themselves.

In nearly every place he was, the team got rid of him regardless of his numbers. Can we think of many players like that? I cannot really think of any.

I am sorry that has to be a consideration.

If you played before the 70's you don't matter.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

If you played before the 70's you don't matter.

The HoF's the ultimate abode of all-time greatness: That's pretty much the exact opposite of "Never trust anyone >30." It can't exclude everyone the middle-aged selectors grew up watching, covering and even playing alongside. There's a reason all players must wait 5 years after retirement, and most don't make it on the first ballot. There's a reason they added a Seniors group.

Your argument is ESPECIALLY problematic for receivers and passers, because the growth of NFL passing has been a steady process practically since the leagues founding almost a century ago, so career stats have steadily risen accordingly and ANY cutoff is largely arbitrary. There have been three epochal NFL changes:

1) Unlimited substitution during WW II due to the draft (not the NFLs, though it was created about the same time,) ending after 1946 but permanent since 1948.

2) The pass-intensive AFL and subsequent merger, which created several expansion teams and DOUBLED the total, leading into the PI era in the mid-1970s.

3) Free agency after 1987 and the cap after 1993, ending the era of dynasties.

It's illustrative that all but the first can't be pinned down to a single snapshot season: The AFLs "air war on the airwaves" really predates the AFL itself by a couple years, because it truly began with the 1958 NFL Championship, AKA The Greatest Game Ever Played. The NFL had just created OT that same season, and immediately needed it for a championship game roughly a third of the US watched live, which made Johnny U a star and inspired Lamar Hunt to found the AFL.

It still took nearly a decade to reach the first Super Bowl, nearly 20 years before felony assault ceased being a legal means of pass coverage, and nearly 30 before an NFL team won a championship by passing more than it ran (i.e. from preference instead of desperation.) The FA/cap transition was rapid by comparison, but only if we ignore the salary demands of pro footballs first stars enabling two abortive pro leagues in the '70s and '80s.

Defenseless receiver rules are trivial by comparison, and so recent it's too soon to saw whether the Competition Committee will rein them in (though odds are it'll continue using CTE as an excuse to perpetuate arcade scoring.) One of the biggest aspects of that change doesn't even directly involve passers, but QBs through rules to protect their knees and heads that were prompted by a season-ending injury to Tom Brady.

It would surely thrill NE* fans, but we won't divide NFL history into Before Brady and After Brady. Certainly not while he's STILL PLAYING.

Believing the world began with ones own birth is a defining trait of youth, but that's precisely why the NFL HoF is organized as it is.