Thread: John Clayton's GOAT QB Ranking

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...st-nfl-qb-ever

6. John Elway

Regular-season record: 148-82-1 | Regular-season MVPs: 1987
Super Bowl titles: XXXII, XXXIII*
Elway was perhaps the most talented of the great class of quarterbacks in the 1983 draft. He was so good that he would take above-average Denver Broncos teams to Super Bowls, even though it took him 15 years to get his first Super Bowl title. He closed his career in the best way -- back-to-back titles.

I will still contend that Elway was the best ever for any number of reasons but i thought Clayton's list was interesting and frankly, its understandable why he put Brady at #1 like he did because of all the SB's he has managed to get to.

Maybe Dread will show up to debate Elway vs. Otto Graham.

Originally Posted by Northman

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...st-nfl-qb-ever




I will still contend that Elway was the best ever for any number of reasons but i thought Clayton's list was interesting and frankly, its understandable why he put Brady at #1 like he did because of all the SB's he has managed to get to.

Brady isn't #1, no chance. Brady goes down and his team goes 11-5 with Matt Cassel.... Brady's a damn good qb but not #1. I'd swap him and Elway on that list.

Originally Posted by Davii

Brady isn't #1, no chance. Brady goes down and his team goes 11-5 with Matt Cassel.... Brady's a damn good qb but not #1. I'd swap him and Elway on that list.

I agree about the swap but..... Bubby Brister came in for John for a few games and still kept the team winning. Like Bubby, Cassell was lucky to be part of a very good team that really should of made the playoffs that year.

Originally Posted by Northman

I agree about the swap but..... Bubby Brister came in for John for a few games and still kept the team winning. Like Bubby, Cassell was lucky to be part of a very good team that really should of made the playoffs that year.

A "few games" doesn't make a season

And the first four games this year they went 3-1 with like a 12th string qb, no Gronk, etc. When Brady is out they don't suffer a whole lot. No doubt there's a drop off, but I think at this point it's fairly obvious BB is the architect of the Pat's success to include Tom Brady.

Originally Posted by Davii

A "few games" doesn't make a season

And the first four games this year they went 3-1 with like a 12th string qb, no Gronk, etc. When Brady is out they don't suffer a whole lot. No doubt there's a drop off, but I think at this point it's fairly obvious BB is the architect of the Pat's success to include Tom Brady.

I disagree in the sense that the QB still has to make the plays. BB is a great HC, probably the best of this generation (minus the cheating scandals) but i can guarantee that when Brady finally retires they wont have near the success as they did with Brady there. I mean, as much as people think Siemian sucks donkey balls we still went 9-7 so you can have "some" success with just about any QB so as long as there is talent around them and the coaching is competent.

Originally Posted by Northman

I disagree in the sense that the QB still has to make the plays. BB is a great HC, probably the best of this generation (minus the cheating scandals) but i can guarantee that when Brady finally retires they wont have near the success as they did with Brady there. I mean, as much as people think Siemian sucks donkey balls we still went 9-7 so you can have "some" success with just about any QB so as long as there is talent around them and the coaching is competent.

Exactly, and Brady always has great talent around him, excellent coaching, etc. Like I said, there's a drop off when Brady is out, but the proof is in their record without him.

Ranking QBs is very difficult. It's natural to look at team success and championships and make a case. I see championships as team accomplishments and rank them lower than most when talking about QB success. I tend to rank them on who I would want to be my QB if I was running a team. Brady wouldn't be #1 on my list. He's a great QB, but he's benefited more than anyone on that list other than maybe Bradshaw and Montana in playing for a great franchise and great HC.

Brady isn't Top 5, he's a proven cheater too.

The fact that Brady is about to play in Super Bowl LI -- his seventh Super Bowl appearance -- is remarkable, especially after missing the first four games of the season because of his Deflategate suspension.

Sometimes people say more than they intend....

I used to say it's so hard for a SB-winning QB in his careers final days to drop everything he's had so long and successfully, move across the country, start over with a completely different team and DO IT ALL AGAIN that NO ONE could ever do it—until someone DID. Without taping practices, or play signals, or deflating any balls.

Until/unless someone ELSE does that, it's the mark to beat. Literally EVERYONE else is open to charges of "system QB" because they never did it any other way anywhere else. Not that guy: He TRANSCENDED systems.

As for Graham vs. Elway, Graham was elite, but Reeves would've loved him because he never called his own plays. And his career rushing average would make Hillman cringe. Plus two years after he retired his team was back in the NFL Championship (though they did draft Jim Brown that year, and went 5-7 the year in between.) I still think was the best PLAYER ever, because he was an elite passer, runner and even kicker. But he did it so long ago his stats are nonexistent, so it's purely a matter of opinion with only anecdotal evidence to support it.

Originally Posted by Joel

Sometimes people say more than they intend....

I used to say it's so hard for a SB-winning QB in his careers final days to drop everything he's had so long and successfully, move across the country, start over with a completely different team and DO IT ALL AGAIN that NO ONE could ever do it—until someone DID. Without taping practices, or play signals, or deflating any balls.

Until/unless someone ELSE does that, it's the mark to beat. Literally EVERYONE else is open to charges of "system QB" because they never did it any other way anywhere else. Not that guy: He TRANSCENDED systems.

As for Graham vs. Elway, Graham was elite, but Reeves would've loved him because he never called his own plays. And his career rushing average would make Hillman cringe. Plus two years after he retired his team was back in the NFL Championship (though they did draft Jim Brown that year, and went 5-7 the year in between.) I still think was the best PLAYER ever, because he was an elite passer, runner and even kicker. But he did it so long ago his stats are nonexistent, so it's purely a matter of opinion with only anecdotal evidence to support it.

Sammy Baugh (a contemporary of Graham) may have been a better passer than Otto, and he led the league in punting, passing, and INT's in 1943.

I have a question, though: You have three coaches in Belichick, Paul Brown, and Walsh that were considered great coaches. Belichick (although he has been cheating) has done wonders in Foxborough. Paul Brown was ahead of his time in the 40's and 50's. And, while Walsh didn't invent the short passing offense (or WCO), he did refine it to a higher level. So, with that in mind, why are Brady, Graham, and Montana given so much credit, but someone like Elway (who took Denver to three SB's in the 80's in spite of Dan Reeves) is considered overrated by a lot of people?

Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53

Sammy Baugh (a contemporary of Graham) may have been a better passer than Otto, and he led the league in punting, passing, and INT's in 1943.

I have a question, though: You have three coaches in Belichick, Paul Brown, and Walsh that were considered great coaches. Belichick (although he has been cheating) has done wonders in Foxborough. Paul Brown was ahead of his time in the 40's and 50's. And, while Walsh didn't invent the short passing offense (or WCO), he did refine it to a higher level. So, with that in mind, why are Brady, Graham, and Montana given so much credit, but someone like Elway (who took Denver to three SB's in the 80's in spite of Dan Reeves) is considered overrated by a lot of people?

Because people just see a guy out there throwing the ball like a boss and they forget about everything else. If you walk into Harvard, you're going to see a lot of brilliant people. Most of them, however, had a ton of advantages in life. It's an analogue here. Who knows how Joey Harrington would have done with BB. Or even Matt Cassel had he been a full time starter with BB.

Then again, BB isn't throwing the ball for Brady. He's not sliding around in the pocket, or taking the abuse.

Originally Posted by Von Kinger

Because people just see a guy out there throwing the ball like a boss and they forget about everything else. If you walk into Harvard, you're going to see a lot of brilliant people. Most of them, however, had a ton of advantages in life. It's an analogue here. Who knows how Joey Harrington would have done with BB. Or even Matt Cassel had he been a full time starter with BB.

Then again, BB isn't throwing the ball for Brady. He's not sliding around in the pocket, or taking the abuse.

Yeah, but it's possible that Belichick's right hand man (Ernie Adams) was talking to Brady through a second frequency in his helmet that the NFL didn't monitor (they cut it off 15 seconds before the snap), and was talking to him right up to (and maybe even after, heaven forbid) the snap of the ball. If that happened (Doug Flutie was the one who found this when he was NE backup 11 years ago), Brady's legitimacy has to come into question.

Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53

Sammy Baugh (a contemporary of Graham) may have been a better passer than Otto, and he led the league in punting, passing, and INT's in 1943.

I have a question, though: You have three coaches in Belichick, Paul Brown, and Walsh that were considered great coaches. Belichick (although he has been cheating) has done wonders in Foxborough. Paul Brown was ahead of his time in the 40's and 50's. And, while Walsh didn't invent the short passing offense (or WCO), he did refine it to a higher level. So, with that in mind, why are Brady, Graham, and Montana given so much credit, but someone like Elway (who took Denver to three SB's in the 80's in spite of Dan Reeves) is considered overrated by a lot of people?

Dan Reeves wasn't half as bad as most Broncos fans seem to think. If we buy Shazam and OrangeHoofs (compelling) argument that the difference between Elways SB beatdowns in his prime and his wins in his final years was a reliable running game so he didn't have to do it all alone with his arm, that pretty much vindicates Reeves' entire Broncos coaching career.

That also makes it ironic that Elways last game was against a Falcons team Reeves took from 3-13 to 7-9 and then 14-2 with the likes of Chris Chandler under center but Jamaal Anderson in his only All Pro season. And that ANOTHER HoF QB defined by doing it all with his arm yet flaming out in the postseason reached HIS final game via a Shanahan-Kubiak system derided, like Reeves', as "too conservative." Von Miller earned SB MVP, but CJ earned Honorable Mention last year.

Anyway, Graham can be accused of being a product of Browns innovative system. That's the basic point I stole from THGoF about Graham being criticized for not calling his own plays (which the authors further noted practically made him a trailblazer for modern QBs.) Again, like Montana, when Graham retired his team needed all of three years to reach another championship game (though drafting Jim Brown may have helped, a little.) On the other hand, maybe Graham COULD have called his own plays, because as a coach after the 1962 season he did something no other coach had done since the 1960 season or would do again until the 1964 season:

Beat Vince Lombardis Packers—with a college all star team (the final college all stars win against the the NFL Champs in the annual Chicago College All-Star Game; Graham was also the all stars coach for their previous win, against his old nemesis Bobby Layne and the Lions.) His tenure as Redskins coach was bad despite Sonny Jurgensen and Charley Taylor, but they did little better when Lombardi succeeded him, so Graham's probably not to blame.

There's a lot to argue for Graham as a player though: Smart enough to complete his medical degree, athletic enough to win an NBA championship before he played a down of pro football. Contemporary accounts from his teammates and Brown claim he was decades ahead of his time in his ability to anticipate his receivers breaks by the set of his shoulders and rifle short passes through coverage yet softly place long ones so they were easily caught. All this in a career that began in a '40s T offense that regularly called on him to be a dual threat runner.

Grahams 1946 season passer rating of 112.1 was the record for FORTY-THREE YEARS until Montana broke it—and, as much as Browns system inspired Walshs, it was no dink and dunk WCO affair: Graham also averaged 10.5 yds/att in 1946, 10.2 the following year and 10.6 in 1953 (Montanas career best was 9.5; Youngs best as a starter was 9.2) His 86.6 CAREER rating is higher than Elway, Marino, Favre and still 8th among retired players (three of those rated better are Young, Montana and JEFF GARCIA, which is the best demonstration of how much the WCO is built to boost passer ratings at the expense of everything else.)

Not to say that the NFL's gone pass-crazy, but "8th among retired players"="24th overall." Some of those active players (e.g. Rodgers) are legitimately great, but KIRK COUSINS is tied with Matty Ice for 11th best: EVER. The only retired players (by the 224 att/season requirement applied to each years qualifiers) in the top five are (in order) Young, Manning, Warner, Montana and—DAUNTE CULPEPPER. There's a good argument the 14 att/gm (X16=224) minimum established in 1973 is somewhat... antiquated for modern NFL passing: In 1973, NFL teams averaged just over 24 passing att/gm; this year they averaged nearly 36, roughly 50% more.

As for whether Graham is as much a system QB as Brady or Montana:

2008 Cheatriots minus Brady: 11-5
1992 '9ers minus Montana: 14-2, lost NFCCG to SB Champion Cowboys (then did the same at 10-6 in '93, and were 13-3 Champs in '94.)
1956 Browns minus Graham: 5-7

I hate the Patriots like any good Broncos' fan should.

But, to discount what Brady has accomplished is stupid. I'm not saying he should be #1 - Elway holds that spot for me - but he's a damn good QB and to say otherwise means you really don't understand football or the position he plays.