I just thought you were trying to bring the riot factor down even more....like look over here......Originally Posted by chazoe60
Oops, wrong thread.
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I just thought you were trying to bring the riot factor down even more....like look over here......Oops, wrong thread.
Getting Stoked
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i think Allen is a great leader. Still like him. He took over a horrid roster while Mckenzie was still purging contracts. Iti was a horrid situation for a first time coach. I think he'll be a head coach again and do well.
Tried&true, Orange&Blue
This is what Coaching up is all about. No square peg round hole.
"I may not be a mathematician, but I can count to a million." - Shannon Sharpe
Insert clever phrase here
Allen was a much better DC than Joseph. But not sure there is any other comparison except both were DC's previously.
Jospeh is inheriting a good team and is highly regarded by everyone as a leader and gets respect from his players. The pick wasn't Sexy enough for some but we don't need sexy we someone to get the most out of the talent.
His hires have been solid and he kept the DC they want to build around versus holding on to wade for a couple more years and let the stud young guy go elsewhere. So far I am giving them an a plus for the work done since Kubes retired.
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That's a key to success in business too. A successful boss comes in and asks her employees: "What works for you? What doesn't work?" And then tells them all to do what works and don't do what doesn't work.
A better man.
"Indefinite paid vacations work GREAT for me, boss: Do it for the shareholders!"
Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. —Jaded
Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
Love can't be coerced. —Me
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My comparison with them both is they were defensive back coaches that for some reason that who knows why, both were rated to be the next big thing very soon as HC.
Dennis Allen to me was just a guy at DC, I never saw anything especially great out of him, he went to be a HC, again based on some reputation that he had from who knows where and he flamed out.
VJ as I mentioned was in the same boat, a DB coach said to be a coming great HC, why?
But as I mentioned, I am willing to see what happens without bitching too much more because I think he is doing a solid job with his offensive hires.
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Of course the one main thing with Tomlin is he kept the defensive staff in tact with Lebeau. Even though Tomlin himself was a different defensive philosophy with his Tampa 2 past. The Steelers as a result remained the #1 defense in 2007 and 08.
Also, the ONE and ONLY season Tomlin had as a DC, the Vikings were a top 10 defense in 2006. Not 29th overall in the NFL.
The simple fact is we have nothing other than hope and trust in Elways judgement for this. That is all we really have.
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Long-ass paid vacations don't increase profits, so no, that doesn't "work" for the company. It's what works for the company, not just the employee. It's just that a company that maximizes what employees do well, will be profitable."Indefinite paid vacations work GREAT for me, boss: Do it for the shareholders!
A better man.
Nothing about the COMPANY in
I agree great coaches play to their players existing strengths even while developing new ones, but the second part's at least as important as the first. Outsourcing and downsizing don't "fit" (existing) employees well at all, but have been the DEFINING metric of the biggest business "success" for decades. This feels less like finding coaches who fit players than coaches who fit Elway (which some may recall as a popular criticism of hiring Kubiak, Wade and Dennison in the first place.)That's a key to success in business too. A successful boss comes in and asks her employees: "What works for you? What doesn't work?" And then tells them all to do what works and don't do what doesn't work.
Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. —Jaded
Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
Love can't be coerced. —Me
Member
Most of this is a side issue. As to whether "outsourcing" and "downsizing" create a viable long-term business that is very debatable. I can say that my uncle who was a former CEO of Gillette didn't believe that. At all. But that was some years ago now. Maybe building a company, valuing your employees, involving them in workplace decisions and getting the most out of them is no longer fashionable in the US in big business.
But, as a small business man, I can say with perfect confidence that screwing and de-valuing your employees, giving them responsibilities that don't fit well with their skill sets and then blaming them for any resulting failures is not a great strategy for success. If I treated people who have worked for me like that I would fail almost immediately.
I don't think it's much of a successful formula in the NFL either. We know that's not how the Broncos won the SB.
Last edited by Cugel; 01-21-2017 at 12:59 PM.
A better man.
I agree in principle, but my point is that when an employee in ANY business is COMPLETELY incompetent, the solution isn't to vainly seek the ONE thing that employee's good at, then reorient the entire organization to suit those few meager strengths. If only because that won't "work" for most of the REST of the workforce.
That's from 1988s The Hidden Game of Football; then the 'Skins linemen made QBs like Doug Williams and Mark Rypien SB Champs, and the early '90s Cowboys and late '90s Broncos made offensive linemen respectable. A little. The OTs anyway, and REALLY good pulling Gs. During their SB runs, there were a few stories about Dallas' linemen spending their offseason learning judo, but most stories focused on things like Nate Newton eating entire tables full of food at each meal.Rookies start at RB, at WR, even at QB. Very few start at G.
Which brings up a weird footnote on terminology. Runners and passers and catchers are always referred to as playing the "skill positions." Linemen, of course, are "unskilled." The idea seems to be that you need an apprenticeship, six sponsors, and a union card before you're allowed to touch the football, but any brainless lummox can shove Rosey Taylor around for an afternoon. It sounds as if you could make an offensive line by counting off the first five winos in an alley. Odd. Have you ever noticed how many NFL head coaches used to be offensive linemen?
THREE of our STARTING linemen were drafted late because 32 NFL scouting groups concluded they HAD no strengths. Sambrailo was the penultimate 2nd round pick because, when NFL teams in need of a starting OT went looking, EIGHT decided they had a better option than him, and exercised it. Seattle didn't even TRY to re-sign Okung, nor KC Stephenson. Last year, Evan Mathis was still sitting by his phone TWO WEEKS BEFORE OPENING DAY—then John Elway called to offer him $2M.
What "overlooked strengths" should Kubiak have played to there?
THAT'S what neutered our offense. For the rest, DT and Emmanuel get their share of balls—when our QBs have a chance to THROW them, and the perennial "we should throw deep to stretch the D" vs. "we should throw short to give our young QBs confidence and development" debate ignores the fact that 1) We've tried BOTH those things (and many others) but 2) our line doesn't give our QBs much time to throw ANYWHERE, let alone go through progressions to find a lone open receiver. Same goes for the arguments over which RBs should start; we've started virtually EVERY RB ON THE ROSTER FOR SIX YEARS to no effect: Because the holes aren't there, so they either go down in a heap or break multiple backfield tackles just to reach the line, leaving them on IR by midseason.
No loyal longtime Broncos fan will blame Elway for any of that, or for ANYTHING AT ALL: He's the Duke, and questioning his perfection is sacrilege. But someone's got to take the bullet for his mistakes (and he's human, so DOES make them) and the head coach would be designated target even he weren't a former backup QB easily dismissed as simply riding the coattails of Elway, Shanahan and now Wade to championships.
Have fun with that, Vance Joseph and Mike McCoy; I look forward to seeing which 3rd round OTs and 5th round Gs are next years "starters," and precisely how it's ya'lls fault when they and our offense fare no better than their MANY predecessors.
Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. —Jaded
Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
Love can't be coerced. —Me
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You know how my avatar goes from calm to rant? Well, Joel's goes from rant to nuclear bomb going off. Way to bury the needle dude!
The OL will be better because they won't be trying to pound square pegs into round holes, forcing everybody and everything into the Kubiak system. Well, the system didn't work and is now getting dismantled.
They have some OL who might do OK in a power running scheme. It's not as if they are totally devoid of talent (well Ty Sambrailo is, but watch for him to get cut this pre-season - that's what Brandon Stokely thinks will happen).
LT - Okung. Okung right now is "ironically the opposite of what he was in college" (Cecil Lammey), where he was known for his pass-protection skills. Now he's lost a step but has developed into a better run-blocker. He's a pretty strong dude. He might do better in a more traditional blocking scheme.
LG - Max Garcia. Garcia's big problem was getting out of synch with the rest of the line because he was too aggressive (again analysis by Brandon Stokely). He's a mauler who might be better in a more traditional scheme.
C - Max Paradis. Paradis excelled despite 2 bad hips he's had surgery on this off-season. If completely healthy he could be a total beast. Even 1/2 crippled he ranked as the top C in the entire NFL according to Football Outsiders.
RG - Hell if I know. We do know Michael Schofield is a backup, not a starter. The starter is not on the roster.
RT - ????? They will dump Donald Stephenson, and go out in FA and try and find a RT. I sure as hell hope we don't hear any crap about Ty Sambrailo playing RT. He can't play dead in a western.
Last edited by Cugel; 01-21-2017 at 10:24 PM.
Senior Member
Hmm. Interesting.
A better man.
1) Fox ran a power scheme for FOUR YEARS and it STILL SUCKED: That's (supposedly) what Kubiak was hired to FIX, so how can it be his doing?
2) A favorite criticism of Kubiaks "scheme" is that "he" drafted low rated prospects like Sambrailo and Schofield precisely because they DO fit the ZBS, NOT power.
He might do better with Barone in Minnesota, too. Or maybe there's a reason why Seattle didn't even TRY to re-sign him.
Garcia AND Paradis' big problem is that ANY kind of stunt or delay leaves them chasing their tails because they have poor balance and agility; a power scheme might minimize that (it certainly suits Garcia better) but there's a reason NEITHER went higher than the end of the 5th round. And Paradis has always been underpowered: If you want to see a "square peg in a round hole," put Matt Paradis in a power run offense.
Yeah: Because "Kubiak" didn't think he was worth $6M on the heels of an All Pro season.
in a dumpster, which is how they got Stephenson in the first place.
Thus no less than EIGHT OTs were drafted before him. There's only so much left at OT in the top of the 3rd round (basically what the next-to-last 2nd round pick is.)
Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. —Jaded
Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
Love can't be coerced. —Me
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