Thread: Broncos Gameday Thread: Broncos vs Patriots 12/18/16

Originally Posted by spikerman

MO, we all know that in most games, the Line Judge is the most important person on the field.

My apologies, good sir.

Originally Posted by MOtorboat

My apologies, good sir.

Occasionally it's the Field Judge.

Originally Posted by spikerman

MO, we all know that in most games, the Line Judge is the most important person on the field.

ass!




of course, it is true in today's NFL. . .

Originally Posted by spikerman

Occasionally it's the Field Judge.

In the Broncos case, it's definitely the head referee or the other guy in the backfield who calls our Oline for holding at the drop of a hat but never seems to see the obvious holds, and I do mean blatantly obvious, against Von Miller. How many holding calls in their favor has our defense gotten this year? About as many as our offense gets a game. Apparently, the elite, once in a generation pass rusher Von Miller will never break 20 sacks because teams are free to hold him every play. It's almost sad watching Olinemen get beat repeatedly only to hold and prevent the sack.

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

In the Broncos case, it's definitely the head referee or the other guy in the backfield who calls our Oline for holding at the drop of a hat but never seems to see the obvious holds, and I do mean blatantly obvious, against Von Miller. How many holding calls in their favor has our defense gotten this year? About as many as we get a game. Apparently, the elite, once in a generation pass rusher Von Miller will never break 20 sacks because teams are free to hold him every play. It's almost sad watching Olinemen get beat repeatedly only to hold and prevent the sack.

Agreed, it does get old

Originally Posted by Freyaka

So basically...We just keep drafting QB's till we find someone you deem a "star". That's how you become the Browns FYI....How do you define "star potential"?

How many stud prospects have the Browns drafted in the past several years? Not many. Manziel was a bad pick, Quinn just didn't work out. Other than that, they hadn't heavily invested in a QB prospect since Tim Couch.

Originally Posted by dogfish

is rus wilson a stud QB in this league? would he be if he'd been drafted in cleveland?

Yes to the first, probably not to the 2nd. It's hard to say. He'd still have the same potential, but might have never developed there.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

To follow up at more length since I'm not at work now.

Here's a list of the Qb's you named through their first 12 starts as the full time starter.
Brady
2,300 yards 61.27% comp 16 TD 9 INT's 10 fumbles sacked 32 times
Rodgers
2,897 yards 64.54% comp 20 TD 10 INT's 8 Fumbles sacked 25 times
Stafford
2,267 Yards 52.92% comp 13 TD 20 INT's 4 Fumbles sacked 24 times
Luck
3,105 Yards 64.06% comp 23 TD 8 INT's 4 Fumbles sacked 36 times
Roethlisberger
2,084 Yards 67.28% comp 14 TD 8 INT's 2 Fumbles sacked 27 times
Newton
3,297 yards 61.4% comp 13 TD 14 INT's 5 fumbles sacked 28 times
Wilson
2,344 yards 63.26% comp 19 TD 8 INT's 5 fumbles sacked 23 times
Brees
2,323 Yards 62.67% comp 12 TD 12 INT's 1 fumble sacked 15 times
Rivers
2,600 Yards 64.77% comp 16 TD 6 INT's 7 fumbles sacked 21 times
Ryan
2,625 yards 63.16% comp 13 TD 6 INT's 2 fumbles sacked 13 times

Your definition of a star QB is the ability to "take over games". How in their first season starting did any of those players demonstrate this ability? How did they seperate themselves from a guy like Trevor Seimian who has so far through the same number of games

3,012 Yards 61.3% comp 16 TD 8 INT's 4 fumbles sacked 31 times? How could you in their first year tell that those players were going to be stars? And don't say where they were drafted, because draft status is a crap shoot. Players are just as likely to pan out at any given draft spot as they are to fail miserably....

Now I want to be abundantly clear, none of this is to compare Trevor to any of those players or say that he is going to end up like them, it's to make the point that he's playing as well or better than any of them did their first full season as a starter. He's on par with them, who knows if he will ever be in the same zip code as any of those players talent wise, but it's really hard to gauge at this point. He's shown a lot of smart decision making and an ability to protect the ball (despite your claims) especially when compared with his peers above.

Based on that I want to see what he can do with another season under his belt and better protection.

Now look at their status as prospects. Only Brady and Wilson were surprises, and plenty of people liked Wilson a lot. If you say draft position isn't correlated with natural talent, then you're saying that every NFL scout doesn't have a clue what they're doing.

Originally Posted by I Eat Staples

How many stud prospects have the Browns drafted in the past several years? Not many. Manziel was a bad pick, Quinn just didn't work out. Other than that, they hadn't heavily invested in a QB prospect since Tim Couch.



Yes to the first, probably not to the 2nd. It's hard to say. He'd still have the same potential, but might have never developed there.



Now look at their status as prospects. Only Brady and Wilson were surprises, and plenty of people liked Wilson a lot. If you say draft position isn't correlated with natural talent, then you're saying that every NFL scout doesn't have a clue what they're doing.

Status as prospects is an overrated way of judging talent...A player picked in the first round can be a bust just as easy as a pick in later rounds can fail to pan out. Drafting players is a crapshoot and if you refuse to look past what round a player is drafted you are going to miss out on players that may not fit the pre-defined mold, but will still have a big impact on your team. In my opinion, it's narrow minded to assume that because a player wasn't highly touted coming into the league, that he cannot become a solid starter.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

Status as prospects is an overrated way of judging talent...A player picked in the first round can be a bust just as easy as a pick in later rounds can fail to pan out. Drafting players is a crapshoot and if you refuse to look past what round a player is drafted you are going to miss out on players that may not fit the pre-defined mold, but will still have a big impact on your team. In my opinion, it's narrow minded to assume that because a player wasn't highly touted coming into the league, that he cannot become a solid starter.

Yeah, I'm not saying that. But every elite QB in the NFL except Brady and Wilson were elite prospects, and Wilson was at least a decent one.

Originally Posted by I Eat Staples

Yeah, I'm not saying that. But every elite QB in the NFL except Brady and Wilson were elite prospects, and Wilson was at least a decent one.

Have you ever thought about the fact that maybe it wasn't due to their "elite prospect status" so much as it was due to the fact that teams were willing to give them a shot because of where they went in the draft?

I often wonder how many talented players got passed up because they didn't make enough noise in college. How many QB's could have been elite, but got passed up for some first round dud like Tebow instead?

The biggest thing I've seen that frustrates me is the people that refuse to believe that Trevor can grow into something more and automatically say "he was drafted in the 7th round" as if that automatically means he's never going to be anything more than a backup. I've seen so many people refuse to even watch him play objectively because he was drafted in the 7th round and therefore a waste of time. How do you know he won't end up more? Your only answer is he wasn't drafted high enough, that's the only answer anyone gives is draft status.

Guys like Brady, Kurt Warner, ect...They weren't highly touted coming into the NFL, but they find the right team that gave them the opportunity to start and they ran with it.

Draft status is only important until the draft is over. You can't rely on it to determine someone's ability to make it in the NFL once they get there.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

Draft status is only important until the draft is over. You can't rely on it to determine someone's ability to make it in the NFL once they get there.

I understand your point, but draft status isn't just about the draft. It's about $. Players who were drafted higher are paid more. What this means, at least for the team that drafted them, is more opportunity to play and more leeway given to make the team and see the field. No team likes the idea of a lower round pick who makes less getting significant playing time over a guy who was drafted higher. High picks will always get an opportunity over lower round picks until the lower round pick proves he's just flat out better.

Many good players who were drafted late or undrafted never see the field on their original team and have to hope they get picked up in FA by a team that is weak at the position they play so they'll get noticed. About the only position this doesn't hold true for is QB. Because there's only one on the field, the chance for a backup to get playing time and prove his worth is higher based on injury or just overall shitty performance by the starter. High dollar / draft pick QBs are always given a long leash to succeed or fail over lower round/cheaper ones in hopes they'll develop enough to be worth the investment. Why do you think it always takes so long for guys like Osweiler and Fitzpatrick to get the hook even when they're playing like shit? Draft position and/or salary. You get a lot more opportunity to succeed or fail as a high round pick based on the money invested. Sampro and Schofield still have jobs because of this. The Broncos don't want to just shit can a 2nd and 3rd round pick until they're positive that they can't be salvaged. A guy like Siemian has very little monetary investment. The Broncos, like any team, will give their 1st round pick a lot more chances and benefit of the doubt than a 7th rounder.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

It's hardly cherry picking when you grab that wide of a variety of players...It's not like I'm just grabbing only the ones that support my argument. It went with the same criteria across the board, but discredit however you feel best supports your bias...I don't care. I know I'm wasting my breath with you, your mind is made up on the matter.

Besides the only point I'm trying to get at is for everyone to cut the kid a little slack and sit back and see what happens.

Those are very cherry picked stats. 12 starting QB who appear to all be pro bowl players.

Where is bortles or QBs like that on your stats? Or QB who were first round busts.i know you used someone elses list. But they are all great franchise QBs. They all also showed great potential in first starts that there was no question about them being the franchise QB.

Siemian has not stood out like they did in firat starts
Brady was good enought that a HOF QB was replaced. Big ben and luck led teams to playoffs in first year at QB.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

Have you ever thought about the fact that maybe it wasn't due to their "elite prospect status" so much as it was due to the fact that teams were willing to give them a shot because of where they went in the draft?

I often wonder how many talented players got passed up because they didn't make enough noise in college. How many QB's could have been elite, but got passed up for some first round dud like Tebow instead?

The biggest thing I've seen that frustrates me is the people that refuse to believe that Trevor can grow into something more and automatically say "he was drafted in the 7th round" as if that automatically means he's never going to be anything more than a backup. I've seen so many people refuse to even watch him play objectively because he was drafted in the 7th round and therefore a waste of time. How do you know he won't end up more? Your only answer is he wasn't drafted high enough, that's the only answer anyone gives is draft status.

Guys like Brady, Kurt Warner, ect...They weren't highly touted coming into the NFL, but they find the right team that gave them the opportunity to start and they ran with it.

Draft status is only important until the draft is over. You can't rely on it to determine someone's ability to make it in the NFL once they get there.

Wilson started as the 3rd string QB when he was drafted. He flat out destroyed the competition for QB. Call it taking a chance if you want. But he dominated and won the starting gig.

Siemian is not running away with anything right now. He has this chance and has not done a whole lot with it imo.

Originally Posted by Freyaka

Status as prospects is an overrated way of judging talent...A player picked in the first round can be a bust just as easy as a pick in later rounds can fail to pan out. Drafting players is a crapshoot and if you refuse to look past what round a player is drafted you are going to miss out on players that may not fit the pre-defined mold, but will still have a big impact on your team. In my opinion, it's narrow minded to assume that because a player wasn't highly touted coming into the league, that he cannot become a solid starter.

Natural better players are in early rounds. That us kot a question.

But a QB can get rattled and lose confidence and be a bust. Same with any other player. Some players just can not adjust to the speed of the game and bust.

In general teaning camp they are almost all equal and right for depth. If they are good than they earn a roster spot.