Thread: Replacing Malik Jackson?

He was far more valuable imo to the defense than many think. To me the key was the push from the middle that made the pocket uncomfortable for every QB they faced. Especially in the play off run. I know I am not Einstein with that observation, but I do think Malik along with Wolfe were far more valuable than many think. Especially Jackson. Without a pocket to step into, the outside guys do not just run by. Meaning, their pursuit becomes that much more effective.

Here is an example of that.




I know in this hard cap era, it is literally impossible to sign EVERYONE. I guess I am a little concerned over losing that effectiveness that Jackson provided.

We will be fine.

I don't think it's that people do not realize Jackson's value to the defense but it's a matter of reality. It was going to be difficult for Elway to re-sign him.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

He was far more valuable imo to the defense than many think.

We'll see. I concede not being defensively minded, but think of the 3-4 as built like a V and the 4-3 as inverted V: That makes the NT and OLBs the 3-4s core and the DEs and ILBs complementary players. Very few dominating 3-4 DEs come to mind; basically Watt. Don't get me wrong, I love Wolfe to death, and Jackson also played both run and pass well, but they don't take over games as Von and Ware do, mainly because that's not their role.

4-3s need star DEs to do what 3-4 OLBs do; 3-4s not so much.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

To me the key was the push from the middle that made the pocket uncomfortable for every QB they faced.

I agree, but believe that was primarily Sly, who really impressed me by stepping fully and firmly into a role I really didn't think he had the mass to play (remember, this is a guy who'd spent his first three years playing UT next to the kind of beefy forces of nature I like for 3-4 NTs.) This clip's a prime example: Sly didn't make the play, nor even get penetration, but DID draw a double team up the gut so OTHER people could on the edge.

That's not to take anything away from Jackson, who's a good player and still had to bull rush a starting G one-on-one to set up the play (though the way Ware beat the OT, and Von the other one, they might've made the play anyway.) But 3-4 DEs don't have to be elite at anything, only reliable against both pass and run. Guys like that aren't that hard to find, and we've already got an elite one on the other side.

Maybe the physicality and athleticism of Wolfe AND Jackson made Sly look better than he is; again, we'll see. But we've got a guy who started in Wolfes spot the whole first month of the season, then spent the rest of it rotating with Sly, and did both well. We've also got a 2nd round and UDFA rookie who each look like they could do the same. And we've still got Wolfe. I wish Jackson well, but doubt we'll miss him much.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

I know in this hard cap era, it is literally impossible to sign EVERYONE. I guess I am a little concerned over losing that effectiveness that Jackson provided.

Understandable and justified, but the key thing is to keep the core guys, then fill in the complementary ones around them with versatile athletic players hungry to establish themselves with a champion. I think we're doing that; at this point I'm more concerned about who starts in Trevathans place than which of our good options replaces Jackson. My two cents; take 'em for what they're worth.

Originally Posted by Joel

We'll see. I concede not being defensively minded, but think of the 3-4 as built like a V and the 4-3 as inverted V: That makes the NT and OLBs the 3-4s core and the DEs and ILBs complementary players. Very few dominating 3-4 DEs come to mind; basically Watt. Don't get me wrong, I love Wolfe to death, and Jackson also played both run and pass well, but they don't take over games as Von and Ware do, mainly because that's not their role.

4-3s need star DEs to do what 3-4 OLBs do; 3-4s not so much.


I agree, but believe that was primarily Sly, who really impressed me by stepping fully and firmly into a role I really didn't think he had the mass to play (remember, this is a guy who'd spent his first three years playing UT next to the kind of beefy forces of nature I like for 3-4 NTs.) This clip's a prime example: Sly didn't make the play, nor even get penetration, but DID draw a double team up the gut so OTHER people could on the edge.

That's not to take anything away from Jackson, who's a good player and still had to bull rush a starting G one-on-one to set up the play (though the way Ware beat the OT, and Von the other one, they might've made the play anyway.) But 3-4 DEs don't have to be elite at anything, only reliable against both pass and run. Guys like that aren't that hard to find, and we've already got an elite one on the other side.

Maybe the physicality and athleticism of Wolfe AND Jackson made Sly look better than he is; again, we'll see. But we've got a guy who started in Wolfes spot the whole first month of the season, then spent the rest of it rotating with Sly, and did both well. We've also got a 2nd round and UDFA rookie who each look like they could do the same. And we've still got Wolfe. I wish Jackson well, but doubt we'll miss him much.


Understandable and justified, but the key thing is to keep the core guys, then fill in the complementary ones around them with versatile athletic players hungry to establish themselves with a champion. I think we're doing that; at this point I'm more concerned about who starts in Trevathans place than which of our good options replaces Jackson. My two cents; take 'em for what they're worth.

Some of the most impactful defenders are the 3-4 DEs. Many times they do not get the notoriety that they deserve and some do.

JJ Watt is a 3-4 DE for example. Yes, traditionally the NT did get most of the rep and they are still valuable no doubt. However, in the growing pass happy league and the emphasis being placed on "pocket passers" it is as much about pushing the pocket.

That btw has always been Brady's great kryptonite. If you notice he becomes very ordinary when he doesn't have a sterilized pocket to step into. Typically, a 3-4 defense offers the best chance since a DC can dial up different looks as far as blitz packages. Zones etc.

Anyway, Malik Jackson provided definite push and made teams adjust to it during games. I just saw a lot more effectiveness with the edge rushing since many times the pocket was pushed back. Wolfe was also a big contributor.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

He was far more valuable imo to the defense than many think. To me the key was the push from the middle that made the pocket uncomfortable for every QB they faced. Especially in the play off run. I know I am not Einstein with that observation, but I do think Malik along with Wolfe were far more valuable than many think. Especially Jackson. Without a pocket to step into, the outside guys do not just run by. Meaning, their pursuit becomes that much more effective.

Here is an example of that.




I know in this hard cap era, it is literally impossible to sign EVERYONE. I guess I am a little concerned over losing that effectiveness that Jackson provided.

Fortunately the guy who was doubled is still on the team, and so is the guy who was doubled more than any other defensive lineman we have.
I'm not saying Malik isn't a good player, because he is, but he isn't even the 3rd best player from last year's front 7.
I think our d may be half a step slower this year, but our offense should be 2 steps faster.

When you're surrounded by good players (Denver's d-line), everyone looks good.

When you're surrounded by poor players (Denver's o-line), everyone looks bad.

Pot Roast was great but we won a Super Bowl without him. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by OrangeHoof

When you're surrounded by good players (Denver's d-line), everyone looks good.

When you're surrounded by poor players (Denver's o-line), everyone looks bad.

Pot Roast was great but we won a Super Bowl without him. Just sayin'.

Not for nothing, but the Broncos were missing rather key pieces in that game.

Von Miller
Derek Wolfe
Chris Harris
Ryan Clady
Vickerson

Along with a few others. Personally, I thought the defense was greatly mismanaged. Even if they were all healthy, JDR's 4-3 scheme did not put players in their natural positions.

The point is Malik Jackson was a very effective rusher from what can be seen as the interior.

I think his presence will be missed.

I guess you meant the SB loss to Seattle as "that game"? Read again. I said we *won* a Super Bowl (that would be last season) without Pot Roast. A lot of folks wanted to keep Pot Roast and predicted we'd suffer without him. Result? He got his millions elsewhere and we got the Lombardi Trophy.

I liked Malik and Travathan both. But you have to prioritize. The defense priority in the NFL is edge rushers and cornerbacks. Elway made sure he's covered in both departments with a bonus (Roby and Ray) to account for injury. ILBs, DTs and safeties aren't as difficult to replace so he can forgo paying top dollar for those players and simply find someone else in the draft or free agency to develop that meets our price.

That's the reality of the situation. We kept Wolfe but let Malik leave. We kept Marshall but let Travathan leave. We have replacements for both.

That's simply the economics of pro football in the salary cap era. You pay to keep your "skill position" guys and selectively allow the others to leave when they become easier to replace than to pay.

Crick and Gotsis will do a fine job. Wolfe was the better player by year's end and i expect huge things with a other year under Kollar. I dont want to minimize Malik but to a certain degree much of his performance was system and playing for Kollar. 15mill for 5 sacks is a ridiculous number

Originally Posted by Jsteve01

Crick and Gotsis will do a fine job. Wolfe was the better player by year's end and i expect huge things with a other year under Kollar. I dont want to minimize Malik but to a certain degree much of his performance was system and playing for Kollar. 15mill for 5 sacks is a ridiculous number

Sacks is one thing, pressure is another. That play I have on the gif is typical.

I thought this Broncos defense was their best even though they did not break the team record for sacks which is 57 in 1984.

Yes, I understand the economics of the game makes it impossible to sign everyone. That is just the way it is. Like when the Pats had to part with many of their key cogs over the years.

I trust Elway's judgement. His general manager skills are actually eclipsing what he accomplished as a QB at this rate.


Personally, I sort of wish they did not give DT all of that money so they could have had enough to sign Malik.

Originally Posted by Jsteve01

Crick and Gotsis will do a fine job. Wolfe was the better player by year's end and i expect huge things with a other year under Kollar. I dont want to minimize Malik but to a certain degree much of his performance was system and playing for Kollar. 15mill for 5 sacks is a ridiculous number

Sacks is one thing, pressure is another. That play I have on the gif is typical.

I thought this Broncos defense was their best (as far as pass rush) even though they did not break the team record for sacks which is 57 in 1984.

Yes, I understand the economics of the game makes it impossible to sign everyone. That is just the way it is. Like when the Pats had to part with many of their key cogs over the years.

I trust Elway's judgement. His general manager skills are actually eclipsing what he accomplished as a QB at this rate.


Personally, I sort of wish they did not give DT all of that money so they could have had enough to sign Malik.

Originally Posted by OrangeHoof

I guess you meant the SB loss to Seattle as "that game"? Read again. I said we *won* a Super Bowl (that would be last season) without Pot Roast. A lot of folks wanted to keep Pot Roast and predicted we'd suffer without him. Result? He got his millions elsewhere and we got the Lombardi Trophy.

I liked Malik and Travathan both. But you have to prioritize. The defense priority in the NFL is edge rushers and cornerbacks. Elway made sure he's covered in both departments with a bonus (Roby and Ray) to account for injury. ILBs, DTs and safeties aren't as difficult to replace so he can forgo paying top dollar for those players and simply find someone else in the draft or free agency to develop that meets our price.

That's the reality of the situation. We kept Wolfe but let Malik leave. We kept Marshall but let Travathan leave. We have replacements for both.

That's simply the economics of pro football in the salary cap era. You pay to keep your "skill position" guys and selectively allow the others to leave when they become easier to replace than to pay.

This. We had two options to pick from at each position, paid one and let the other go, and are now in the process of replacing the production from those spots for cheap. The goal is for Gotsis to turn into Wolfe, and for Gotsis to get the contract 4 years from now when we let Wolfe go. The Patriots have been doing this for more than a decade. We're now at that point. If we've actually addressed the QB position (even if at Flacco-level rather than Brady-level) then we can spend the rest of our time getting the team to compete for another 10 years.

Can't pay everybody and do that. We're doing it the right way.

I'd rather have our best WR compared to our 4th best front 7 player.

Originally Posted by Broncoknight30

Personally, I sort of wish they did not give DT all of that money so they could have had enough to sign Malik.

Elway wouldn't have done that anyway. He's been very vocal about not dedicating too many resources to one position on the team because it hurts too much in other areas. Malik was not getting paid by us.

Whether we should have kept Wolfe or Jackson is up for debate, but I thought the rumor was that they made the same offer to both dudes, first one to take it gets it, and Wolfe took it.

Wolfe: 4/36 million with 17+ guaranteed
Malik: 6/85.5 million with 30 million guaranteed and another 5 million in bonuses.

Malik was absolutely right not to sign the deal. His guarantees are almost as much as Wolfe's entire deal. And in return, he can't play here. Wolfe made the same decision Chris Harris made: to take "enough" money and stick around Denver longer to enjoy winning and not have to endure a craptastic environment.

It's great when players choose that. If they're happy, and they get to stay, then I'm happy. It works best when there are multiple options. DRC chose differently a couple of years ago, and missed out on the Super Bowl. Now that Malik HAS his Super Bowl, he can prioritize the cash and make sure he's set for life. I don't blame him in any way.

That's a reason it's hard to keep Super-Bowl-caliber teams together. Elway seems to be doing a pretty good job of keeping the train rolling, though, despite some guys needing to get off.