Thread: Muffed punt Rule question

Why was that a touchback? It hit the Steeler return man then the guy who recovered it did so out of the end zone and slid in. I thought it should've been down at the 1. Can someone explain? Was it a bad call? It could not have been a safety on a punt in that case since it was touched by the receiving team before being going into and, supposedly, being recovered in the endzone?

Looked to me like he didn't get full control of ball until it touched goal line, I think if he covers it clean it's either down on 1/2 yard line or a safety, which would depend on when he's touched I would think.

Btw, ST's are rounding into PO shape.

Same question as in the gameday thread: After they muff it—even IN the end zone—if WE recover in the end zoneis that a TB or TD? Pretty sure it's the latter, because once the receiving team touches the ball it's live. So why's that not the case when THEY recover their own muff in the end zone?

Thank heaven neither that nor Miller dropping Bens fumble-that-was-not-a-fumble BEFORE crossing the goal line mattered, but little things can be decisive in NARROWLY decided games (which virtually all ours are now.) Great for NFL and network revenue, but bad for my heart.

Ok, here's the deal. A muff does not change the status of a kick; it is still a kick. When the Pitt player muffed the kick and then it rolled into the end zone it was still a kick just as if he hadn't touched it at all (for whether it's a kick or not purposes) so it would be a touch back. If, the Broncos had recovered it in the end zone it would have been a td because it was touched by the receiving team. If, the Broncos had recovered the ball outside of the end zone it would have been their ball at that spot as the kicking team can recover, but cannot advance a muff. It all has to do with impetus on the ball, which is a long explanation.

Originally Posted by spikerman

Ok, here's the deal. A muff does not change the status of a kick; it is still a kick.

So?

Originally Posted by spikerman

When the Pitt player muffed the kick and then it rolled into the end zone it was still a kick just as if he hadn't touched it at all (for whether it's a kick or not purposes) so it would be a touch back. If, the Broncos had recovered it in the end zone it would have been a td because it was touched by the receiving team. If, the Broncos had recovered the ball outside of the end zone it would have been their ball at that spot as the kicking team can recover, but cannot advance a muff. It all has to do with impetus n the ball, which is a long explanation.

The highlighted part seems the critical issue, but the receiving team had already touched the ball WHOEVER recovered it in the end zone. The fact it's still a kick shouldn't change that, because the TB should've been off the table as soon as the receiving team 1) touched the ball in 2) the field of play.

To be clear, I'm not saying a returner in the end zone dropping the ball and then falling on it should be a safety: I'm arguing this is analogous to a returner cleanly fielding a punt OUTSIDE the end zone and THEN running into it: That's "still a kick," but also still a SAFETY, not a TB, yes?

No, once the ball is caught by the returner the kick is over and it is now a running play. Running it into the end zone from outside the end zone and being tackled would then result in a safety, unless the returner's momentum carried him not the end zone.

This is why you'll hear penalties being enforced "from the end of the kick" which is basically where it was caught and possessed.

Originally Posted by Joel

So?


The highlighted part seems the critical issue, but the receiving team had already touched the ball WHOEVER recovered it in the end zone. The fact it's still a kick shouldn't change that, because the TB should've been off the table as soon as the receiving team 1) touched the ball in 2) the field of play.

To be clear, I'm not saying a returner in the end zone dropping the ball and then falling on it should be a safety: I'm arguing this is analogous to a returner cleanly fielding a punt OUTSIDE the end zone and THEN running into it: That's "still a kick," but also still a SAFETY, not a TB, yes?

Not only that but he did appear to recover it outside of the endzone and then slide in. Shouldn't that be at the 1 not 20? Also this seems to reward a guy for bobbling the ball into the end zone just to get a TB instead of a ball inside the 5. Seems like either a stupid rule or called the wrong way on the field.

I will say this: Pitt got REALLY lucky on several muffs that nearly gave us easy TDs in a game where we struggled to score ANY. The Stealers ESPN beat report was critical of that in his postgame summary, noting it was another thing they lost in Brown (their usual punt returner.)

Our STs came up HUGE for the first time I recall in the Manning Era. Pitts punt returner muffed a couple, but Colquitt did well to get the ball in the right place, and (I'm embarrassed to say I forget whom) got down to the goal line to keep another out of the end zone early. Webster CAUSED one of those muffs, and made an immediate crushing tackle inside the 20 on another punt. Pitts punter helped out with a giftwrapped early FG, but the other was 100% Boldens runback. On top of that, McManus was perfect on 5 FGs, including a 51 yder and two more from 40+, and prevented all returns by putting every kickoff in the end zone.

Maybe DeCamillis earned the Divisional Round gameball.

Originally Posted by gregbroncs

Not only that but he did appear to recover it outside of the endzone and then slide in. Shouldn't that be at the 1 not 20? Also this seems to reward a guy for bobbling the ball into the end zone just to get a TB instead of a ball inside the 5. Seems like either a stupid rule or called the wrong way on the field.

It wouldn't be smart because the ball is live. I don't think the Steeler gained control of the ball until he was in the end zone.

This is what I don't get about the whole "it's still a kick" thing: if the kicking team catches/touches the punt without a member of the receiving team touching, the ball is down right there. If the receiving team DOES touch the punt, and the kicking team picks it up, they get the ball.

So how is that NOT changing the status of the kick?

Originally Posted by spikerman

It wouldn't be smart because the ball is live. I don't think the Steeler gained control of the ball until he was in the end zone.

It was close, I thought he recovered it then sort of lost it while sliding on the ground then recovered it again in the end zone. Seems to me he had control but lost it again. Not sure why he should be rewarded for that. I guess they figure if he lost it again he didn't have control. I still think it's a stupid rule, oh well it didn't cost us in the end.

Originally Posted by I Eat Staples

This is what I don't get about the whole "it's still a kick" thing: if the kicking team catches/touches the punt without a member of the receiving team touching, the ball is down right there. If the receiving team DOES touch the punt, and the kicking team picks it up, they get the ball.

So how is that NOT changing the status of the kick?

In the first scenario, that is illegal touching and the ball becomes dead at that spot; however, the receiving team can try to advance the ball after an illegal touch if it has not yet been blown dead. In the second scenario you're talking about a muff, and yes, it can be recovered by the kicking team, but not advanced. In both cases the kick ends when the ball is possessed.

Originally Posted by spikerman

No, once the ball is caught by the returner the kick is over and it is now a running play. Running it into the end zone from outside the end zone and being tackled would then result in a safety, unless the returner's momentum carried him not the end zone.

This is why you'll hear penalties being enforced "from the end of the kick" which is basically where it was caught and possessed.

Okay, so back to "if a muff's still a kick, why isn't an end zone recovery by the receiving team ALSO a TB?" In ALL other scenarios I can think of, gaining possession in the end zone is either 1) a TB WHOEVER gains possession or 2) a safety if possession's gained in ones own end zone but a TD if in an opponents.

It sounds like a muff OUTSIDE the end zone's "still a kick" ONLY if the receiving team recovers in the end zone for a TB: If the KICKING team recovers in the end zone it's a "now a run" (because if it were "still a kick" that would be a TB, not a TD.) That's incredibly contradictory. If that's the rule, that's the rule, but it's a horrible one (much like the rule about an offense fumbling a ball near the goal line: If it goes out at the 1, it's their ball at the 1, but if it goes out the end zone, it's a TB.)

Originally Posted by spikerman

It wouldn't be smart because the ball is live. I don't think the Steeler gained control of the ball until he was in the end zone.

Yeah: Because it would only be "still a kick" and thus a TB if HIS team fell on it in the end zone; if the OPPONENT did, it would be "NOT still a kick" and thus a TD.

Hence "incredibly contradictory." Whether it's "still a kick" shouldn't depend on WHO recovers it, only what CAUSED the recovery.

I couldn't agree with awarding the kicking team a safety just because the returner muffed a kick in the end zone and immediately fell on it, and do agree with awarding the kicking team a TD if THEY fall on it instead. The difference to me is that this muff occurred OUTSIDE the end zone and THEN the ball entered it. Seems like that should at least nominally shift the balls impetus from the kicking to the receiving team, even if the muff doesn't alter the balls direction/speed.

After all, must a players momentum be altered to be down by contact, or is it enough for him to be touched while on the ground?

Originally Posted by Joel

Okay, so back to "if a muff's still a kick, why isn't an end zone recovery by the receiving team ALSO a TB?" In ALL other scenarios I can think of, gaining possession in the end zone is either 1) a TB WHOEVER gains possession or 2) a safety if possession's gained in ones own end zone but a TD if in an opponents.

It sounds like a muff OUTSIDE the end zone's "still a kick" ONLY if the receiving team recovers in the end zone for a TB: If the KICKING team recovers in the end zone it's a "now a run" (because if it were "still a kick" that would be a TB, not a TD.) That's incredibly contradictory. If that's the rule, that's the rule, but it's a horrible one (much like the rule about an offense fumbling a ball near the goal line: If it goes out at the 1, it's their ball at the 1, but if it goes out the end zone, it's a TB.)

You'll have to give me some examples. It's all about which team is responsible for the ball being in the end zone. I will answer this tomorrow when I'm not so tired because I'm not sure I understand your question. FYI, this is why I spend months studying the rule book.