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Thread: The Audacity of Peyton Manning

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davii View Post
    Manning is only 1 year older than me. If I had the required talent I would be out there, no doubt.
    He's only 2 years younger than I, but that small difference is huge in terms of declining physical limits. Especially for a guy who made his living off elite intelligence, awareness and discipline compensating for (relatively) lessers physical ability from the start. Once that physical ability starts declining it never stops, so it gets harder and harder to continue compensating, until it finally becomes impossible. You know what they say: After 40, everything's maintenance. Or, in Mannings case, after March.

    I'm not (yet) saying he's definitely done; he still made a lot of nice throws today (the one that stands out was the one that got us in the red zone at the start of the 2nd half: Loads of time, so he stepped into the throw and winged a beautiful bullet accurate enough to be caught on the run and advanced for a huge gain.) I still believe the bad ones could just be down to expecting pressure far more often than he has the rest of his career, and no longer having the luxury of reflexive hot reads from a playbook he WROTE; he's also practiced less than any other time in his career, when he needs it most.

    If we keep seeing games like this going forward though, with Manning TWICE nearly throwing away we DOMINATED, it's the end of an era. The protection and run support's still not perfect, but is sufficient: There's no one left to blame but the guy throwing wobbly floaters, dirtballs and Ints.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    He's only 2 years younger than I, but that small difference is huge in terms of declining physical limits. Especially for a guy who made his living off elite intelligence, awareness and discipline compensating for (relatively) lessers physical ability from the start. Once that physical ability starts declining it never stops, so it gets harder and harder to continue compensating, until it finally becomes impossible. You know what they say: After 40, everything's maintenance. Or, in Mannings case, after March.

    I'm not (yet) saying he's definitely done; he still made a lot of nice throws today (the one that stands out was the one that got us in the red zone at the start of the 2nd half: Loads of time, so he stepped into the throw and winged a beautiful bullet accurate enough to be caught on the run and advanced for a huge gain.) I still believe the bad ones could just be down to expecting pressure far more often than he has the rest of his career, and no longer having the luxury of reflexive hot reads from a playbook he WROTE; he's also practiced less than any other time in his career, when he needs it most.

    If we keep seeing games like this going forward though, with Manning TWICE nearly throwing away we DOMINATED, it's the end of an era. The protection and run support's still not perfect, but is sufficient: There's no one left to blame but the guy throwing wobbly floaters, dirtballs and Ints.
    . . . oh, and completions, and TDs.
    RIP Cameron, D, & D

  4. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean View Post
    . . . oh, and completions, and TDs.
    He's thrown 6 TDs and 5 INTs, Coach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    He's only 2 years younger than I, but that small difference is huge in terms of declining physical limits. Especially for a guy who made his living off elite intelligence, awareness and discipline compensating for (relatively) lessers physical ability from the start. Once that physical ability starts declining it never stops, so it gets harder and harder to continue compensating, until it finally becomes impossible. You know what they say: After 40, everything's maintenance. Or, in Mannings case, after March.

    I'm not (yet) saying he's definitely done; he still made a lot of nice throws today (the one that stands out was the one that got us in the red zone at the start of the 2nd half: Loads of time, so he stepped into the throw and winged a beautiful bullet accurate enough to be caught on the run and advanced for a huge gain.) I still believe the bad ones could just be down to expecting pressure far more often than he has the rest of his career, and no longer having the luxury of reflexive hot reads from a playbook he WROTE; he's also practiced less than any other time in his career, when he needs it most.

    If we keep seeing games like this going forward though, with Manning TWICE nearly throwing away we DOMINATED, it's the end of an era. The protection and run support's still not perfect, but is sufficient: There's no one left to blame but the guy throwing wobbly floaters, dirtballs and Ints.
    Weren't you just talking about how you knew people would blame Manning when it was the OL's fault?
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  6. #20
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    Manning really looks bad this year. Not saying "he's done" but he does look very bad at times. The 2 INTs he threw today were total wtf moments for me.

    If he continues to play like this you got to think it will be his last for sure.
    "Oh I’m sorry, did I break your concentration?”
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  7. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Weren't you just talking about how you knew people would blame Manning when it was the OL's fault?
    Yeah, and I'm still not certain that's not the case: But the line was undeniably better (if not perfect) in protection AND run blocking today, and Manning STILL stunk, so they can't take the blame. If he just needs time to regain his trust in the line that it spent 3 solid years shattering, okay: He's got a week. If the protection and run support's as good next week and he's as bad as today, that's all on him.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    Yeah, and I'm still not certain that's not the case: But the line was undeniably better (if not perfect) in protection AND run blocking today, and Manning STILL stunk, so they can't take the blame. If he just needs time to regain his trust in the line that it spent 3 solid years shattering, okay: He's got a week. If the protection and run support's as good next week and he's as bad as today, that's all on him.
    Stunk huh? You got a shitty memory.
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  9. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Stunk huh? You got a shitty memory.
    Was wildly inconsistent then: He was occasionally great, occasionally awful, and usually somewhere in between, but leaned more toward the latter. He faced a lot less 2nd and 12s and 3rd and 8s today, but we kept punting a lot anyway. Except for the two drives when Minnesota got the ball back without ANY kind of Denver kick. One was at the edge of McManus' range, right before the half, and the D was so gassed by then the long return set up an easy TD: That's basically 10 pts Manning gave them in a SINGLE 2:00 Drill. Be real, man: This was the most unambiguosly bad MANNING game in years.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

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  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    Was wildly inconsistent then: He was occasionally great, occasionally awful, and usually somewhere in between, but leaned more toward the latter. He faced a lot less 2nd and 12s and 3rd and 8s today, but we kept punting a lot anyway. Except for the two drives when Minnesota got the ball back without ANY kind of Denver kick. One was at the edge of McManus' range, right before the half, and the D was so gassed by then the long return set up an easy TD: That's basically 10 pts Manning gave them in a SINGLE 2:00 Drill. Be real, man: This was the most unambiguosly bad MANNING game in years.
    The line sucks.
    Receivers suck.
    Play calling sucks.
    Elways jealous.
    He just wins.
    "Tuning ... into each other ... lift all higher”
    “I’m just different!”

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  12. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    The line sucks.
    Receivers suck.
    Play calling sucks.
    Elways jealous.
    He just wins.
    Those arguments have been around longer than we've had Manning, Sanders a couple All Pro guards or Kubiaks playbook; if that logic was invalid then, it's even more so since the TEAM's improved a LOT. I mean, Decker's not bad, but he's no Sanders, no one will ever mistake Kuper (let alone Beadles; "pumped up FB" I think you called him?) for Mathis or Vasquez and I'm confident most people would agree Kubiak and Dennisons offensive game plans and playcalls are worlds better than Fox and Gases (or even Fox and McCoys.)

    So excusing Mannings recent performance requires more than a Skip Bayless music video. To the extent that logic's valid at all, it's valid for ANY QB, which is one of many reasons I said we were wasting our time and Mannings until we fixed the line so we could protect our QB and give him run support: Even PFM couldn't single-handely lead us to a championship, and the proof is he hasn't. Got pretty close for a one-dimensional one-man offense, but he can't walk on water nor between raindrops (nor blitzers.)

    Be honest though: Manning didn't win that Vikings game; everyone ELSE won it, and he was just along for the ride.

    Manning didn't make a 72 yd TD run: Hillman and the line did all that after Manning made a rugby toss; I could do that.

    Manning had ONE nice THROW to get us into the red zone (with the help of a penalty) on our first second half drive, but only because the line finally gave him FOREVER to throw without even a hint of pressure, so he could step into a high speed precision deep strike: That DRIVE (rather than a single PLAY) was all about Kubiaks playcalling maintaining the variety and balance to keep the D completely unbalanced, and the 1 yd TD pass to an uncovered Owen Daniels? Pretty sure me, you, my wife and probably even my mom make that throw, too.

    The rest of our scores (i.e. 3 FGs) are mostly down to an All Pro WR and another who SHOULD be leaping for lots of jump balls and diving for lots of low ones. Meanwhile, we were at the edge of McManus' range just before the half when Manning threw one of those "high percentage" quick outs to a defender who ran it back 50 yds (because Manning's slower than Chris Harris, so are our linemen, and our WRs were sprinting the wrong way 20 yds downfield) to set up a Vikings TD. Between that and the other Int Manning gift-wrapped 13 pts for Minnesota in a game we won by just 3.

    So, fine, "all he does is win." Osweiler won Sunday, too, and was about as big a factor in doing so. Again, none of that's to say Manning's finally through, but if the protection and run support remains as adequate as it was Sunday (let alone improves) and he's still throwing more wobblers, floaters and dirtballs than strikes, THEN he's done, yeah. People have been predicting his demise since he got here; each week there'd be 2-3 bad passes (because he's human) and a few doubters would declare him done while everyone else told them to shut up, then he'd launch a dozen or two strikes and they would.

    Now the balance of passes (and red faces) has shifted the other way though, and unless he can correct again we're watching an ignominious final season.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

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  14. #26
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    You win.
    "Tuning ... into each other ... lift all higher”
    “I’m just different!”

    Sign Garbage Minshew.

    Draft
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  15. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    You win.
    Well, again, I'm still unsure whether Manning's out of gas or just out of patience with his lines inability to protect him OR get our RBs enough push to put him in 2nd and 6 and 3nd and 3 rather than 2nd and 20 or 3rd and 12. They've had ONE decent game; if they revert to playing like the first three it doesn't matter WHAT Manning does or CAN, and he'll keep on rushing throws as the pocket collapses at the snap on 3rd and 22. But if everyone else keeps doing their job and he keeps not doing his, I'll be out of non-Manning explanations.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

  16. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    Those arguments have been around longer than we've had Manning, Sanders a couple All Pro guards or Kubiaks playbook; if that logic was invalid then, it's even more so since the TEAM's improved a LOT. I mean, Decker's not bad, but he's no Sanders, no one will ever mistake Kuper (let alone Beadles; "pumped up FB" I think you called him?) for Mathis or Vasquez and I'm confident most people would agree Kubiak and Dennisons offensive game plans and playcalls are worlds better than Fox and Gases (or even Fox and McCoys.)

    So excusing Mannings recent performance requires more than a Skip Bayless music video. To the extent that logic's valid at all, it's valid for ANY QB, which is one of many reasons I said we were wasting our time and Mannings until we fixed the line so we could protect our QB and give him run support: Even PFM couldn't single-handely lead us to a championship, and the proof is he hasn't. Got pretty close for a one-dimensional one-man offense, but he can't walk on water nor between raindrops (nor blitzers.)

    Be honest though: Manning didn't win that Vikings game; everyone ELSE won it, and he was just along for the ride.

    Manning didn't make a 72 yd TD run: Hillman and the line did all that after Manning made a rugby toss; I could do that.

    Manning had ONE nice THROW to get us into the red zone (with the help of a penalty) on our first second half drive, but only because the line finally gave him FOREVER to throw without even a hint of pressure, so he could step into a high speed precision deep strike: That DRIVE (rather than a single PLAY) was all about Kubiaks playcalling maintaining the variety and balance to keep the D completely unbalanced, and the 1 yd TD pass to an uncovered Owen Daniels? Pretty sure me, you, my wife and probably even my mom make that throw, too.

    The rest of our scores (i.e. 3 FGs) are mostly down to an All Pro WR and another who SHOULD be leaping for lots of jump balls and diving for lots of low ones. Meanwhile, we were at the edge of McManus' range just before the half when Manning threw one of those "high percentage" quick outs to a defender who ran it back 50 yds (because Manning's slower than Chris Harris, so are our linemen, and our WRs were sprinting the wrong way 20 yds downfield) to set up a Vikings TD. Between that and the other Int Manning gift-wrapped 13 pts for Minnesota in a game we won by just 3.

    So, fine, "all he does is win." Osweiler won Sunday, too, and was about as big a factor in doing so. Again, none of that's to say Manning's finally through, but if the protection and run support remains as adequate as it was Sunday (let alone improves) and he's still throwing more wobblers, floaters and dirtballs than strikes, THEN he's done, yeah. People have been predicting his demise since he got here; each week there'd be 2-3 bad passes (because he's human) and a few doubters would declare him done while everyone else told them to shut up, then he'd launch a dozen or two strikes and they would.

    Now the balance of passes (and red faces) has shifted the other way though, and unless he can correct again we're watching an ignominious final season.
    Manning has been done since week 9 last season. The guy got extremely old extremely fast. Its over. This will be a wasted year developing brock and a wasted year of having an elite defense. Brock in kubiaks real offense is a good player. Id rather see the young kid with the big arm and mobility and 4 years of soaking up knowledge out there than another 13 weeks of manning stinking the joint up and making us run some pathetic pistol offense that does nothing for even manning who there running it for.

  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yashahla17 View Post
    Manning has been done since week 9 last season. The guy got extremely old extremely fast. Its over. This will be a wasted year developing brock and a wasted year of having an elite defense. Brock in kubiaks real offense is a good player. Id rather see the young kid with the big arm and mobility and 4 years of soaking up knowledge out there than another 13 weeks of manning stinking the joint up and making us run some pathetic pistol offense that does nothing for even manning who there running it for.
    You don't think the pistol has helped Manning?

    We get it, you don't like Manning, and I personally hate/despise the Shitgun and Pistol, but denying that it's helped him is just stupid.
    "Tuning ... into each other ... lift all higher”
    “I’m just different!”

    Sign Garbage Minshew.

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  19. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yashahla17 View Post
    Manning has been done since week 9 last season. The guy got extremely old extremely fast. Its over. This will be a wasted year developing brock and a wasted year of having an elite defense. Brock in kubiaks real offense is a good player. Id rather see the young kid with the big arm and mobility and 4 years of soaking up knowledge out there than another 13 weeks of manning stinking the joint up and making us run some pathetic pistol offense that does nothing for even manning who there running it for.
    You'd rather see a talented but raw player with 4 years of rust run for his life behind our Swiss cheese line than watch a first ballot HoFer do it? Ask David Carr how well that "develops" young QBs; if by "develop" we mean "deeply scars for life," that's a good approach. We talk all the time about QBs needing a "mental clock" to know how long they have before they MUST get the pass off to avoid a sack, even if they can't actually SEE defenders closing in at the time: You don't want your franchise QB setting his clock by a line that rarely protects their QB >2 seconds (if that.)

    I still think much of the problem is that line's reset MANNINGS clock to My Life Saving Time, but once we get the line in shape he can "fall back" to his normal rhythm far more easily than a guy making his first NFL starts, because Manning spent most of his career in that rhythm; he's not still trying to FIND it. Regardless, until the line's at least slightly below average, it doesn't matter who we send back there to try throwing wherever they can just ahead of a sack, just as it doesn't matter which back we send out to get repeatedly gangtackled at the handoff.

    ALL that's been true "since week 9" of 2010, so Manning looking bad the last ½ a year is less an indictment than Manning look good the previous 2½ years is a tribute. Expect no more from Oz or anyone.
    Oh, valid point. I thought you meant all starters, you should take the time to be more descriptive, don't be shy. Jaded

    Never confuse frustrated candor and disloyal malice.
    Love can't be coerced. —Me

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