Thread: The Peyton we're used to is gone

Originally Posted by TXBRONC

If the offense can stay out on the field long enough to give the defense some rest it can work until the offense can get its act together.

That's the Catch 22, yeah. So far it's worked against mediocre teams, buying us some time without costing us a game, but we can't count on the D taking away 3-4 balls every game (that almost burned us last night, when they caused and instantly snatched a pair of fumbles just a beat after the whistle) because that's another way they fade when tired (and I'm convinced 4th qtr fatigue caused KCs final TD.) Simms and Nantz like noting our D's a classic example of trading size for speed, and thus more prone to fatigue (fortunately they have Mile High to aid conditioning.) It's annoying because it's true.

The line must figure out/remember how to do its job, sooner rather than later, else the wheels will eventually come off the bus. Manning can't cover for awful protection every down, and the D can't cover for awful run blocking every game. One of the tweets posted early in the Gameday thread pointed out we keep getting in trouble because we keep lagging behind dial-a-down, finding ourselves in not only lots of 3rd but 2nd and longs, and that's because our running's so nonexistent early down runs are equivalent to incompletes, leaving us with all-or-nothing 10 yd passes every series.

Mind, I still feel short passes should only be used situationally (e.g. so defenses don't drop 7 deep or send the house the instant they see shotgun, or when they're expecting a run on 3rd and 3, not that any D's expected that then since the early '90s.) But when EVERY play's a 10+ yd pass attempt because the offense can't get a 4 yd run even if the D INVITES it, that's too predictably easy to stop.

Originally Posted by tripp

We're seeing the offensive line improving, which resulted in Peyton Manning being Peyton Manning. He made the throws we're used to seeing. It was pretty surprising to see Manning not wear a throwing glove last night, I didn't even realize he wasn't wearing one till I think Al Michaels pointed it out. He had a lot more zip on his throws I found. We saw Peyton under throw DT and Sanders on two fly routes, and that's nothing more than just a timing issue, as we saw him over throw those two receivers the last 2 games.

I do think the media likes to bury Peyton quite a bit for whatever reason. I do tend to agree with the article in the fact that he doesn't need to be "The Guy", as we have an elite defence, with two elite receivers who are perfectly capable of making yards after the catch, and to be game changers. However, I think he could still be "The Guy" physically if he absolutely had to. Having no run game really really sucks, when we're trying to become a run heavy team.

Manning can still get it done, but could NEVER get it done ALONE. He and everyone needs protection to burn Ds for stacking the box (especially when they blitz,) because even with hot reads and track star WRs, they don't just teleport past jams and 20 yds downfield at the snap. And he needs a good enough run game blitzers and coverage LBs/safeties must watch the RB out of the corners of their eye, control their direction enough to change it quickly if needed, not just sprint for the QB or WR at the snap and ignore run fakes that couldn't hurt them even if genuine.

Oh, and I expect the glove back sooner than later, too; he'll need it this winter, and won't have time to readjust (but maybe he figures wearing it all season for two years means he no longer needs time.)

Originally Posted by Ziggy

I still don't think the Oline problem is a talent problem. I think it's a communication problem. That's fixable. I love the way Sambrailo is coming along.

Mostly agreed; communication and ZBS familarity (though the latter has little effect on pass protection.) TWO All Pros (one <30) don't just turn to crap overnight for no reason, and even the worst line usually has at least ONE guy performing at least ADEQUATELY. The uniform ineptitude of everyone from the early round rookie to the pair of All Pros suggest the problem's not in them, but BETWEEN them. And that's something that'll definitely improve with more practices, film studies and games. Line's function as a unit or not at all, so as long as ours still needs name tags it'll be the latter.

Originally Posted by Joel

That's the Catch 22, yeah. So far it's worked against mediocre teams, buying us some time without costing us a game, but we can't count on the D taking away 3-4 balls every game (that almost burned us last night, when they caused and instantly snatched a pair of fumbles just a beat after the whistle) because that's another way they fade when tired (and I'm convinced 4th qtr fatigue caused KCs final TD.) Simms and Nantz like noting our D's a classic example of trading size for speed, and thus more prone to fatigue (fortunately they have Mile High to aid conditioning.) It's annoying because it's true.

The line's must figure out/remember how to do its job, sooner rather than later, else the wheels will eventually come off the bus. Manning can't cover for awful protection every down, and the D can't cover for awful run blocking every game. One of the tweets posted early in the Gameday thread pointed out we keep getting in trouble because we keep lagging behind dial-a-down, finding ourselves in not only lots of 3rd but 2nd and longs, and that's because our running's so nonexistent early down runs are equivalent to incompletes, leaving us with all-or-nothing 10 yd passes every series.

Mind, I still feel short passes should only be used situationally (e.g. so defenses don't drop 7 deep or send the house the instant they see shotgun, or when they're expecting a run on 3rd and 3, not that any D's expected that then since the early '90s.) But when EVERY play's a 10+ yd pass attempt because the offense can't get a 4 yd run even if the D INVITES it, that's too predictably easy to stop.

Manning can still get it done, but could NEVER get it done ALONE. He and everyone needs protection to burn Ds for stacking the box (especially when they blitz,) because even with hot reads and track star WRs, they don't just teleport past jams and 20 yds downfield at the snap. And he needs a good enough run game blitzers and coverage LBs/safeties must watch the RB out of the corners of their eye, control their direction enough to change it quickly if needed, not just sprint for the QB or WR at the snap and ignore run fakes that couldn't hurt them even if genuine.

Oh, and I expect the glove back sooner than later, too; he'll need it this winter, and won't have time to readjust (but maybe he figures wearing it all season for two years means he no longer needs time.)

Good grief Joel this seem like overkill for a post of one sentence.

That aside Manning has already worn the glove this season.

Originally Posted by TXBRONC

Good grief Joel this seem like overkill for a post of one sentence.

That aside Manning has already worn the glove this season.

Sorry, it was supposed to include tripps two paragraph post. That, and I felt obligated to include some CYA so no one said, "First you said every pass <10 yds sucks, now you say every pass >10 yds sucks."

Originally Posted by Joel

Sorry, tripps two paragraph post was supposed to be included.

That make sense.

I am not so sure that his arm strength has diminished all that much from, say, 2-3 years ago.

That deep out to Sanders, the one overturned on a challenge for the bobble, was textbook. There are plenty of starting QBs in the league right now who don't make that throw under those conditions. Manning definitely needs to be able to step into his throws, and his accuracy on long throws, etc. is not what it was 10 years ago. But seeing that throw should make everyone realize he didn't suddenly morph into a Fitzpatrick/Kyle Orton clone.

If he can start nailing a few long tosses and those deep outs I think it will free up all the short routes once again.

Originally Posted by Warren

I am not so sure that his arm strength has diminished all that much from, say, 2-3 years ago.

That deep out to Sanders, the one overturned on a challenge for the bobble, was textbook. There are plenty of starting QBs in the league right now who don't make that throw under those conditions. Manning definitely needs to be able to step into his throws, and his accuracy on long throws, etc. is not what it was 10 years ago. But seeing that throw should make everyone realize he didn't suddenly morph into a Fitzpatrick/Kyle Orton clone.

If he can start nailing a few long tosses and those deep outs I think it will free up all the short routes once again.

Strength diminishing only matters if you need to put 100% into the throw. Unless you are down by 6 points with 5 seconds on the clock in the 4th quarter on your 20 yard line, you don't have to put 100% into it that often.

So what am I saying? I'm saying that yes, Manning definitely has less arm strength. That will increase almost daily until he dies, and is true for basically everyone over the age of 30ish. That's just a biological fact.

Does it matter much? No. Not really. As long as as he can understand his limitations, he can totally work around them. The 57 yard TD pass needs to become a 50 yard TD pass. NBD.

*Also; Hi Warren. Welcome to our shithole of shouting in glee and anger.

Originally Posted by Warren

I am not so sure that his arm strength has diminished all that much from, say, 2-3 years ago.

That deep out to Sanders, the one overturned on a challenge for the bobble, was textbook. There are plenty of starting QBs in the league right now who don't make that throw under those conditions.

Great point; I noticed at the time, but failed to retain it in long term memory. What was it Michaels said? "I guess you can call that a 'deep out' *chuckle*"

Originally Posted by Warren

Manning definitely needs to be able to step into his throws, and his accuracy on long throws, etc. is not what it was 10 years ago. But seeing that throw should make everyone realize he didn't suddenly morph into a Fitzpatrick/Kyle Orton clone.

Well, it's not like (arm) strength affects touch much unless he's lost so much he just has to chuck it as hard as he can, leaving direction and angle to worry about themselves; I personally don't think we're there yet. Total loss of feeling in all his right fingers could definitely be a factor, but that's been the same since the injury (and could even RETURN any time; wouldn't it be scary if readjusting to THAT'S been the difference?) His range will signfiicantly drop before his general accuracy, which will go last, when he's forced to granny shot every pass just to get it there.

Originally Posted by Warren

If he can start nailing a few long tosses and those deep outs I think it will free up all the short routes once again.

I'm not so sure. Yes, it's a different part of the field, and yes the continued threat of bombs uses the whole field, but in man coverage it's as likely to make the CBs jam more as make them play off. A 7 yd quick slant/out's unlikely to win a SB anyway: Ask the '99 Titans. That was a HELL of a drive to lose a championship just because they expected a receiver'd take a 5 yd dump off (even against a bad D) and PREVENT a championship. How many pick-sixes has Manning thrown so far? And how many were deep? I'll trade a short punt for a shot at the red/end zone, but a fumble/TD for a shot at 7 yds? No, thanks.

Anyone else notice this threads url is easily misread as "The Peyton we re-used is gone." That's why I throw away all my used QBs (that, and it enrages hippies. )

Originally Posted by Ziggy

I still don't think the Oline problem is a talent problem. I think it's a communication problem. That's fixable. I love the way Sambrailo is coming along.

Sambrailo is a borderline LT talent, which is better than I thought he'd be.