Thread: Osweiler not taking Manning's knowledge for granted.

Originally Posted by Jaded

Answer me this, if we don't know if Osweiler is a Starting QB how would we know if Russell is a Franchise QB had they drafted him instead?

.

lol - #logic

Jaded loves the hammer.

Originally Posted by Cugel

I don't think they "don't like him" at all. If he signs a new contract, then either in 2016 or 2017 he's probably going to be given a chance to be the starting QB.

But, there's a difference between "Franchise QB" and "starting QB." The franchise QB position is so important that if the Coach & GM get that wrong, they normally get fired. EX: Brian Billick. Won the SB & was a universally admired coach, but he thought Kyle Boller was his Franchise QB, so he got FIRED.

Teams either have their "Franchise QB" set, which means they've got a guy they think they can plug in and build the team around for the next 5-10 years, or they don't. That means they think if they get the right players around their QB and develop him properly they can compete for a SB.

Ex: Miami's Ryan Tannehill. The Dolphins are committed to him long-term and think they have their guy.

About 1/2 the teams in the league don't have Franchise QBs and are looking for desperately that guy.

Ex: Buffalo. Great defense in 2014, with studs like Mario Williams and Marcel Dareus and should be even better this year with Rex Ryan as coach. But, they are starting Matt Cassel at QB with E.J. Manuel backing up. This equals ZERO chance of a SB. (Vegas has them at 35-1, which is bad considering there are only 32 teams!)

Buffalo has a "starting QB", just like everybody in the league. They don't have a "Franchise QB" - at least not yet. And frankly, they've been looking for that guy since Jim Kelly retired.

The Broncos have a "starting QB" in Osweiler (probably). They don't have a "Franchise QB" which means a guy they are committed to long-term and whom they believe they can build around for the next 5-10 years and go to the SB. If they did they would have already re-signed him and they would want to give him more of an opportunity than starting in his 6th season.

The difference is that the team is probably going to go out in FA or the draft and look for another QB and groom him while letting Brock start. He's a place-holder, like 1/2 the QBs in the NFL. If he does great - fine. He keeps his job. But, they are going to make contingency plans and his leash is going to be rather short.

Cugel, everything Elway has said and done suggest that he sees Oswieler as his future franchise quarterback. Friend,the conclusions you're coming to do not match the available information.

Originally Posted by Northman

Denver is not going to stop looking at QB's just because they have Brock. Elway understands that he may not work out so for any Brock doubters dont fret, John has it covered in case it doesnt pan out. But i think its also safe to say that Brock will get his shot to see if can be the man.

Elway back when he was hired said he would look at quarterbacks every which is exactly what he has done. That said, he's only drafted two and brought in two others as UDFAs. If and when Elway takes a quarterback in first round then it's reasonable to assume that Elway's evaluation of Osweiler has changed.

Nothing hits like a Hammer.

Originally Posted by Jaded

Nothing hits like a Hammer.

Can't touch this.

I don't think there is any reason to believe that Elway sees Oz as a "franchise QB" any more than there is reason to believe he doesn't. Lots of teams passed on Rodgers, and the Packers sat him on the bench a long time bfore giving him the nod over the aged Favre. Breese is another example of a QB taking years to blossom into a top QB. Kurt Warner, a QB that was completely overlooked UNTIL forced into the lineup. No one knows until they are actually on the field. Oz hasn't had that opportunity to succeed, nor fail...YET.

So no.. I don't think Elway sees him as a franchise QB purely because there would be no reason to make that deduction. However, I don't see his lack of playing time as an indicator since he's playing behind Manning.

Originally Posted by Ravage!!!

I don't think there is any reason to believe that Elway sees Oz as a "franchise QB" any more than there is reason to believe he doesn't. Lots of teams passed on Rodgers, and the Packers sat him on the bench a long time bfore giving him the nod over the aged Favre. Breese is another example of a QB taking years to blossom into a top QB. Kurt Warner, a QB that was completely overlooked UNTIL forced into the lineup. No one knows until they are actually on the field. Oz hasn't had that opportunity to succeed, nor fail...YET.

So no.. I don't think Elway sees him as a franchise QB purely because there would be no reason to make that deduction. However, I don't see his lack of playing time as an indicator since he's playing behind Manning.

What do you mean because Elway has said as much? Also Elway has had opportunity to draft a quarterback higher than he did Osweiler. From the moment Rodgers was drafted it was said he heir apparent.

Originally Posted by TXBRONC

What do you mean because Elway has said as much? Also Elway has had opportunity to draft a quarterback higher than he did Osweiler. From the moment Rodgers was drafted it was said he heir apparent.

Yeah.. let me try to explain my meaning.

Being the "heir APPARENT" doesn't necessarily mean anything other than saying "as of right now, he's the guy we want to take over the reigns." It doesn't really "appoint" anything. Like you've said, Elway can change his mind tomorrow. But Elway knows, like most people, that he HAS to be and sound 100% confident in Oz...especially to the public and media. That's an absolute must, because any hesitation or meadering answer to that question, only causes MORE questions to be asked and more people to push for more definitive answers. They create problems. So Elway WANTS Oz to be the guy, but there is no way he really "knows" if Oz is the guy or not. Not until he's on the field taking the fire in games.

Just like Rodgers, they WANTED Rodgers to be the guy to take over for Favre, but they didn't KNOW for sure. They didn't know confidently enough to let Favre go TOO soon. They waited until they knew Favre was on his last ligaments. This will be Manning's last year with the Broncos, and Oz will go into next season as the lead guy to be the starter. Elway will be crossing his fingers that Oz is the man.

My, my, my music hits me. . .so hard.
Makes me say. . .oh my lord.

Peyton Manning can be seen as an elite quarterback in this league right now. He makes the Broncos one of the best teams in the AFC, and definite SB contenders just by his mere presence. The only question about Manning is if he is healthy, and considering that the Broncos wanted him back, it's 'safe' to assume that he is healthy.

So, what would Denver actually do if they had a QB they believed in duplicates? I think they would play the one who is most prepared to win now. Assuming Manning is healthy, does anyone think Brock will outplay him this year? If they do, they're being silly.

Take it a step further - In years past many young talented QB's ate bench for several years. We have only moved away from that line of thinking since to the mid to late 90's, which isn't that long in regards to pro football history. One could postulate, with a high degree of sensibility at that, that Denver might believe they are doing what is best for the short term and the long term.

Even if the Broncos cut ties with Brock, it won't be because they looked at him and say 'you're not as good as the best or second best pure passing quarterback ever.' By that logic they wouldn't want Unitas, Montana, Young, Moon, Favre, or even Tom Brady to play for them.

Cugel, if they do get rid of Brock, please don't think it somehow validates your opinion on the matter.

Originally Posted by TXBRONC

Cugel, everything Elway has said and done suggest that he sees Oswieler as his future franchise quarterback. Friend,the conclusions you're coming to do not match the available information.

Actions speak louder than words. If Elway really believed what he's said they would have signed Osweiler by now. Why let him become an unrestricted FA? Teams never do that with players they see as key pieces of their team long-term. Why let other teams negotiate with your future franchise QB? And it's not as if they are going to have the franchise tag available for Osweiler. They are going to need that for Von Miller, whose contract $ will be over $16M a year, and will be as difficult to negotiate as D.T.'s was.

Also, let all the people who can't wrap their minds round the obvious answer this question: If you were Elway and really believed that Osweiler was going to be your starting QB 5 years from now, and that the team would be competing for a SB with him at QB, why would you bring back Peyton for one last season?

It just makes no sense. They're starting a new offense in Peyton's last year with a rookie LT protecting his blind-side?

Osweiler is going to struggle his rookie year. Even great QBs like Elway, Peyton and Andrew Luck did that. So, why waste time? Why not get that rookie year out of the way, since you're going to have to do that anyway? Get the kid some experience and move on to the Osweiler era. Introduce the new offense and get Osweiler experience in running it.

Were not a majority of Broncos fans saying exactly that after the playoff loss? "Time to move on! Let's see what we have in Brock!"

Everybody on these boards acts like I'm suggesting the sky is yellow, when all the reporters on Sports talk radio are saying the exact same thing - Elway does NOT view Osweiler as the long-term QB, or he'd be starting this season!

If Elway really believed Osweiler could win the SB, then it only makes sense to get him in there and let him develop now!

It's only if you don't really believe that, if you think Osweiler is just a guy, that you take one last desperate ride with Peyton.

How many of you really believe that the Broncos are going to win the SB this year with 39 year old Peyton? After the way the last 3 seasons ended, are your expectations for this year "Super-bowl or bust?" Really?

But, if you do NOT believe that the Broncos can win the SB this season with Peyton, and this is probably his last year, then what's the plan? Waste a year they could be developing Osweiler who really COULD win the SB in the future?

Why would he sign Oz before Oz has hit the field? Why would him sitting behind one of the best ever, and one of the best right now, mean anything bad.

Cugel, once the premise of your argument is inspected it starts to fall apart.

Regardless, you've argued your stance quite well, but at this point we're just being redundant.

Originally Posted by King87

Peyton Manning can be seen as an elite quarterback in this league right now. He makes the Broncos one of the best teams in the AFC, and definite SB contenders just by his mere presence. The only question about Manning is if he is healthy, and considering that the Broncos wanted him back, it's 'safe' to assume that he is healthy.

So, what would Denver actually do if they had a QB they believed in duplicates? I think they would play the one who is most prepared to win now. Assuming Manning is healthy, does anyone think Brock will outplay him this year? If they do, they're being silly.

Take it a step further - In years past many young talented QB's ate bench for several years. We have only moved away from that line of thinking since to the mid to late 90's, which isn't that long in regards to pro football history. One could postulate, with a high degree of sensibility at that, that Denver might believe they are doing what is best for the short term and the long term.

Even if the Broncos cut ties with Brock, it won't be because they looked at him and say 'you're not as good as the best or second best pure passing quarterback ever.' By that logic they wouldn't want Unitas, Montana, Young, Moon, Favre, or even Tom Brady to play for them.

Cugel, if they do get rid of Brock, please don't think it somehow validates your opinion on the matter.

Of course it validates my opinion! What on earth would make the Broncos ditch Osweiler if he's a future SB caliber QB? BTW that has only happened one time in the history of the NFL to my knowledge; that a team dumped a QB who later went on to win the Super-Bowl. That would be Brett Favre who was drafted by the Falcons before going to the Packers. Nobody wants to make that mistake again.

Is it really likely the Broncos can win the SB this season, with Peyton at 39, when they fell disastrously short last year with him at 38? Do they really think that? Or are they not worried about it because he's by far the best option.

What's the long-term best plan?

A. If you think Osweiler is going to be the guy going forward, then you bring him in and start him now. Get him some experience and move forward because you're going to have to do that at some point anyway.

B. If you do not think Osweiler is the guy long-term, then you roll Peyton out one last time, because what have you got to lose? He not only is the best option for 2015, he's the only option.

Because realistically, after Peyton goes, it's going to be exactly like after Elway retired. That is precisely what I expect. This team is going to be filled with tremendously talented players like D.T., Von Miller and Chris Harris, and they're going to struggle to win their division, because their QB is mediocre at best. And it may take many years to find another elite QB just as it took 12 years between Elway and Peyton. And without an elite QB, they're not getting a whiff of the SB.

Like Alfred Williams and D-Mac keep saying on the radio, for 2016, the Broncos should be starting Osweiler, but looking to the draft to get a QB in the first or second round.

Originally Posted by King87

Why would he sign Oz before Oz has hit the field? Why would him sitting behind one of the best ever, and one of the best right now, mean anything bad.

Cugel, once the premise of your argument is inspected it starts to fall apart.

Regardless, you've argued your stance quite well, but at this point we're just being redundant.

The answer to your questions is simple. The Broncos have tried 3 years running with Peyton. It failed. He's played his worst game of the year in the last and most important game every time. He was injured last year, which may have contributed to his poor performance the last 8 games and in the playoffs. Maybe.

Actually, that's what I'm hoping. But, it could be his skills are declining. And realistically, this is the NFL. Is Peyton more likely to stay perfectly healthy this year with a rookie starting at LT?

So, is Peyton's last ride more likely to result in a championship? Or less?

If you have the answer sitting on the bench why wait? Why not sign him long term now, get him in there and start him?

Name one QB who ever won a SB who sat around waiting for 6 years before he started his first regular season NFL game? I don't think its ever happened.