Thread: Fran Tarkenton -- "Elway Knows Football"

I was listening to local sports radio here, and Bob Berry, Jr., has Fran Tarkenton on his show every Friday morning. Fran's hocking some kind of website or something, but always talks about all the issues going on in sports.

When asked if Tarkenton was surprised at the Broncos and Coach Fox parting ways, Tarkenton answered, "Not at all."

He went on to say the following:

-- Elway knows football. He is an HOF guy, but he really knows the game. This is similar to when Elway moved away from Tebow even after the playoff win over the Steeler's. Elway knew Tebow wasn't an NFL Quarterback, and Elway knows that Fox isn't a championship coach.

--Elway knows Fox is not a "detail guy".

--Fox is "not elite". He's average.

--Fox puts his buddies around him on the coaching staff for coordinators. Luckily he has some smart buddies.

--Elway recognized all of this, and wasn't afraid to make the move.

I'm not sure how much credit we can give Elway on that last point since it seems Fox wanted out, and kind of forced Elway's hand. But I thought his comments on Fox were interesting. Again, I'm not sure how valid they are since it's been decades since Tarkenton was in the league, but damn. . .he doesn't think Fox is worth much at all.

Can't get much better praise then that. And it's good to see more people coming out to defend him after Glazier's little PR Campaign for Fox. Boomer Esiason and Phil Simms have done the same in recent days.

It also makes you wonder why he kept Fox after the SB loss if that's how he feels about him

Two of my favorite QB's of all time: Tarkenton and Elway.

Originally Posted by Lancane

Can't get much better praise then that. And it's good to see more people coming out to defend him after Glazier's little PR Campaign for Fox. Boomer Esiason and Phil Simms have done the same in recent days.

It's painful saying anything positive about Phil Simms. Like pit of your stomach kind of painful.

Cant wait for Dread to high five NTL's post.






*snicker* Just busting your balls Dreadmachine.

Originally Posted by Northman

Cant wait for Dread to high five NTL's post.


*snicker* Just busting your balls Dreadmachine.

When Shanny was fired, Dread was not really happy. Same with McD hiring.

I was pro-McD until shortly before Spygate #2.

Dread was right then. . . It's my turn to be right, right?

Originally Posted by Northman

Cant wait for Dread to high five NTL's post.


*snicker* Just busting your balls Dreadmachine.

I just Hi5'ed Layne 2nd post, so there you go. As for the first? Not so much. I am also always deeply suspicious of "detail guys" as that can also be a polite way of saying someone is a micromanaging control freak without the talent to hire smarter people than they are to implement their program, who meddle in stuff their subordinates should be trusted to handle, and who mistake yelling, ranting, and public humiliation for motivational techniques.

See also, McDaniels, Josh.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

I just Hi5'ed Layne 2nd post, so there you go. As for the first? Not so much. I am also always deeply suspicious of "detail guys" as that can also be a polite way of saying someone is a micromanaging control freak without the talent to hire smarter people than they are to implement their program, who meddle in stuff their subordinates should be trusted to handle, and who mistake yelling, ranting, and public humiliation for motivational techniques.

See also, McDaniels, Josh.

So do you really believe John has a Napoleon complex?

Originally Posted by Northman

So do you really believe John has a Napoleon complex?

I am witholding judgement, because I don't know for sure. JE was a great championship QB, a true legend. Bart Starr was also a great QB and a true legend. Bart Starr was not a great HC. Will JE be a great GM? Being great at one thing does not always translate into being great at another.

I do think they need to somehow reinforce to Peyton Manning that he is not running the show, that (for example) backup QB's have to get reps with the first team, and that OC's and HC's create game plans...hopefully with quality input and buy-in from the QB.

Originally Posted by OB

It also makes you wonder why he kept Fox after the SB loss if that's how he feels about him

Only he can answer that, but many good reasons are possible. I always say a new coach needs and deserves 4+ seasons because it takes that long to find his guys with the natural talents and developed skills to play his game his way. Depending on how much he uses a FB, NB and/or extra WR/TE, he must find nearly 30 solid starters and about half as many quality backups to cover injuries and fatigue, but each season only gives him 7 draft picks and maybe 2-3 FA starters to do it. So the first few seasons he's stuck with the bums who got the last guy fired, who may or may not fit his system as well as the old one.

It's easy for that to become a vicious circle if teams only give each new coach 2-3 years to pound their predecessors square pegs into their round holes or get fired. Another potential motive is the need to preserve chemistry and comprehension between the current coaching staff and their hand picked guys during the brief SB window Manning has left; once Elway extended Fox I expected we'd let him play out Mannings hand, for good or ill, and fire him only if and when Manning retired without a Ring and we moved on to the rebuild.

If nothing else, Elway might've kept Fox around a little longer because he wanted to avoid all the national media criticism he's getting now to the effect that "just because Manning keeps choking is no reason to fire a coach who got you to a SB." All that's total spin and BS, of course, but it's being widely said nonetheless; if Elway had fired Fox when the last game he coached WAS the SB instead of a one-and-done debacle at home against a team we should beat easily that had to play an extra game to get there, the criticism would be that much worse.

Whatever Elways reason(s,) he and Tarkenton have EACH forgotten more about elite football than Fox will ever know, and Elway did exactly what I wanted here, so no complaints about it.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

I am witholding judgement, because I don't know for sure. JE was a great championship QB, a true legend. Bart Starr was also a great QB and a true legend. Bart Starr was not a great HC. Will JE be a great GM? Being great at one thing does not always translate into being great at another.

I do think they need to somehow reinforce to Peyton Manning that he is not running the show, that (for example) backup QB's have to get reps with the first team, and that OC's and HC's create game plans...hopefully with quality input and buy-in from the QB.

Starr wasn't great, IMHO; he played for a great coach who put a great team around him on both sides of the ball. Elway had to know a LOT more about football to run the '80s Denver offenses that reached 3 SBs and the completely different '90s offenses that won a pair. All Starr usually had to do was handoff to Hornung or Taylor and watch them run to daylight, secure in the knowledge that, even when they couldn't, his D wouldn't give up many points anyway. Starr's a lot like Griese and Simms in that respect: They could and did game manage their way to a pair of SBs because their teams were that good.

It also helped to have a Lombardi, Shula or Parcells putting their QBs in a position to win.

Originally Posted by NightTrainLayne

he doesn't think Fox is worth much at all.

Fox seems like an elite chemistry guy, but tactics not so much. He leaves shoes to fill, but no one is going to remember him as a football genius. Fox and Manning were an odd couple.

Originally Posted by Joel

Starr wasn't great, IMHO; he played for a great coach who put a great team around him on both sides of the ball. Elway had to know a LOT more about football to run the '80s Denver offenses that reached 3 SBs and the completely different '90s offenses that won a pair. All Starr usually had to do was handoff to Hornung or Taylor and watch them run to daylight, secure in the knowledge that, even when they couldn't, his D wouldn't give up many points anyway. Starr's a lot like Griese and Simms in that respect: They could and did game manage their way to a pair of SBs because their teams were that good.

It also helped to have a Lombardi, Shula or Parcells putting their QBs in a position to win.

I think you are completely off base in re: Starr, who was simply the best QB of the mid 60's. Look at his stats from '62 - 66. They are comparable with modern QB's, apart from his much higher YPA, this in an era where DB's could mug WR's.

Interesting side note to that. When Lombardi took over the Packers in '59 he thought so little of then three year veteran Starr that he traded for a stiff named Lamar McHan from the Chicago Cardinals and handed him the starting job on arrival. McHan was a former 1st round pick, while Starr was a 17th round pick back when there were a crap ton of draft picks each year. So much for that being a perfect predictor.

McHan sucked, just like he always did, and Starr got the job, which he then never relinquished. Proof that even Lombardi could be prone to catastrophically bad personnel decisions. He got lucky that time. Without Bart Starr Lombardi wins nothing IMO. Without Lombardi's coaching Starr remains the guy who couldn't beat out Babe Parilli

John tends to be decisive. I actually thought he would fire Fox after the Super Bowl debacle. He probably wishes he had, now.

But regardless, I don't worry about John's ego as much as I would some other people's. He taught himself how to be a good businessman, a good owner, and a good front office man. The buck will stop with Elway, and that's as it should be. Somebody has to make decisions, and Elway isn't scared of that. He DOES know football, better than most world-class players. Most players are focused on what they do, and can't necessarily pass on that knowledge (see: Manning and his ludicrously underwhelming cadre of backups through the years). Even a lot of coaches are like this. There are reasons why some guys get to be head coaches but cannot replicate the process for their understudies.

John isn't afraid to get outside opinions, and isn't afraid to go with his gut. I'm very interested to see who our next coach is, but even if they fail to bring a championship to Denver I don't feel like that's a referendum on Elway, necessarily. As long as he can keep stocking the team with talent and surround that talent with good coaching, I like our chances going forward. Bill Polian didn't win one in Buffalo or Carolina, and almost missed winning one in Indy, but the guy is a legend for a reason.

Just keep bringing me teams with a chance, John, and keep working to get over the hump. Can't ask for much else.

~G