Thread: Schefter reports Raiders fire Dennis Allen

Originally Posted by King87

The best Bengals team would spank the best Oilers team. Earl Campbell was a punk ass bitch.

Please; Earl and Bums teams beat everyone in the CONFERENCE except the Steel Curtains dynasty; unfortunately, they happened to be in the same division, so got to play back-to-back AFCCGs in Pitt. Even then, even the Steel Curtain couldn't win BOTH those games without a call so obviously awful it spawned replay review. But Cincy spawned... the Ickey Shuffles celebration ban: Thanks.

Main thing Cincy gave the NFL was a starting QB with such a weak arm Walsh had to invent the West Coast Offense just to make him respectable so, y'know, thanks again (still, I highly recommend his Operations Research in Football paper; it truly revolutionized NFL stats.)

Originally Posted by Joel

Please; Earl and Bums teams beat everyone in the CONFERENCE except the Steel Curtains dynasty; unfortunately, they happened to be in the same division, so got to play back-to-back AFCCGs in Pitt. Even then, even the Steel Curtain couldn't win BOTH those games without a call so obviously awful it spawned replay review. But Cincy spawned... the Ickey Shuffles celebration ban: Thanks.

Main thing Cincy gave the NFL was a starting QB with such a weak arm Walsh had to invent the West Coast Offense just to make him respectable so, y'know, thanks again (still, I highly recommend his Operations Research in Football paper; it truly revolutionized NFL stats.)

Sunshine, Paul Brown invented the WCO. It's a shame that the Bengals had to play against the better Niners -better dynasty than the Steelers - in the SB.

I loved the Tyler Rose.

Originally Posted by King87

Sunshine, Paul Brown invented the WCO. It's a shame that the Bengals had to play against the better Niners -better dynasty than the Steelers - in the SB.

According to Belicheat, who presumably has tape to support his case; everyone else says Walsh came up with it in a desperate attempt to make Virgil Carter as good a player as he is a mathemitician (back then college players could actually complete real degrees.)

San Francisco was a great team, but in an NFCW so awful they had a default playoff berth annually after beating up on the Aints, infant Falcons and Rams (the only team that even occasionally gave them competition.) Pittsburgh, on the other hand, had to beat Andersons Bengals teams that benefited from Walshs WCO, as well as Bums Oilers with Earl. Better dynasty? Well, Pittsburgh won half their SBs against a Cowboys dynasty that's the ONLY team that matches them for SB, Conference Championship and playoff appearances. Is beating a team that's 2-3 in SBs bigger than beating one 0-2?

Ya'll had two great seasons; yea, but y'know that stat about KC not winning a playoff game since 1991? That was a year AFTER Cincys last playoff win.

How do we go from Dennis Allen to the Bengals and a team that doesn't even exist anymore?

Originally Posted by Davii

How do we go from Dennis Allen to the Bengals and a team that doesn't even exist anymore?

From someone saying they want a divison rival to be good enough to be worth crushing, and a fan of a team in a different division making a comparison to illustrate he understood. Me, I can cheerfully despise and wish an 0-16 season on every last opponent in my teams division. But some are more deserving than others for being such human filth when they DID have talent.The Raiders have pretty much ALWAYS been cheap shot artists who cheated their way to 5 Super Bowls, "won" 3 and lacked even the shame not to brag about how they did it: It's STILL a source of PRIDE for the Raider Nation.

Go on YouTube and listen to Stabler, Biletnikoff and Casper unrepentantly snigger over the Holy Roller; even Madden could muster no better excuse than "it was legal under the rules, so they changed the rules" despite the rules even THEN explicitly prohibiting batting a fumble to advance it. They got around that because everyone involved swore up and down and crossed their hearts they didn't DELIBERATELY bat it forward—but since retirement they've all admitted that's EXACTLY what they intended; Stabler's flat out said he was TRYING to fumble.

Oakland led the league in penalties so many consecutive seasons that by the time I graduated HS commentators stopped mentioning it; after three decades, it was generally understood the Raiders led EVERY season in penalties: They're just THAT DIRTY, though Seattles turned it into a science and managed to outdo them last year.

On top of that, Davis' ego was so big he set the precedent for threatening to take his team and leave home unless the host city built a new stadium at their expense to give him more profits from luxury boxes; that opened the door for the Irsays to follow suit, and now it's SoP, which is WHY the beloved Oilers with whom I grew up no longer exist.

Davis' ego was so notorious that when Rozelle and company thought up the merger they appraoched each AFL owner individually to get unanimous approval before even mentioning it to AFL owner Davis: They knew he loved being a big fish in a small pond too much to accept the merger unless ALL the AFL owners presented him with a done deal and held his feet to the fire.

Now that Davis is finally gone, his son is continuing the legacy of egomaniacal micromanaging, which suits me fine because the rest of the NFL long ago got wise to their crap so Davis' New Model Army looks very ANTIQUATED and struggles to win ANY game, much less more championships, even after they throw out the rulebook. Couldn't happen to a more deserving organization.

how much money is going to be owed to Allen that he will never see? Shanahan and Kiffin are both still waiting for theirs... that's why you will never see a legit top flight coach take a job there anymore, if you do, you know the guy has no self respect.

He took a flyer on the first HC offer he ever got, and I can't blame him for it. Like Wave said, had he actually managed to put out that dumpster fire, let alone drive it to division titles or a championship, the NFL would've renamed the Lombardi Trophy. And posting the same record and roster quality as countless others before (and likely many more after) is no great sin, nor will it be judged as such. The other 31 GMs and owners realize Oaklands problem at least as well as the other 31 HCs: Remember, the owners must attend meetings Al Davis tried and often succeeded in dominating since before the merger.

Originally Posted by Joel

According to Belicheat, who presumably has tape to support his case; everyone else says Walsh came up with it in a desperate attempt to make Virgil Carter as good a player as he is a mathemitician (back then college players could actually complete real degrees.)

San Francisco was a great team, but in an NFCW so awful they had a default playoff berth annually after beating up on the Aints, infant Falcons and Rams (the only team that even occasionally gave them competition.) Pittsburgh, on the other hand, had to beat Andersons Bengals teams that benefited from Walshs WCO, as well as Bums Oilers with Earl. Better dynasty? Well, Pittsburgh won half their SBs against a Cowboys dynasty that's the ONLY team that matches them for SB, Conference Championship and playoff appearances. Is beating a team that's 2-3 in SBs bigger than beating one 0-2?

Ya'll had two great seasons; yea, but y'know that stat about KC not winning a playoff game since 1991? That was a year AFTER Cincys last playoff win.

Old Billy Boy needs to do some better fact checking.

Oilers bro...oilers....bro

Originally Posted by King87

Sunshine, Paul Brown invented the WCO. It's a shame that the Bengals had to play against the better Niners -better dynasty than the Steelers - in the SB.

Originally Posted by Joel

According to Belicheat, who presumably has tape to support his case; everyone else says Walsh came up with it in a desperate attempt to make Virgil Carter as good a player as he is a mathemitician (back then college players could actually complete real degrees.)

San Francisco was a great team, but in an NFCW so awful they had a default playoff berth annually after beating up on the Aints, infant Falcons and Rams (the only team that even occasionally gave them competition.) Pittsburgh, on the other hand, had to beat Andersons Bengals teams that benefited from Walshs WCO, as well as Bums Oilers with Earl. Better dynasty? Well, Pittsburgh won half their SBs against a Cowboys dynasty that's the ONLY team that matches them for SB, Conference Championship and playoff appearances. Is beating a team that's 2-3 in SBs bigger than beating one 0-2?

Ya'll had two great seasons; yea, but y'know that stat about KC not winning a playoff game since 1991? That was a year AFTER Cincys last playoff win.

1) Walsh was a Bengals assistant under Brown for 8 years '68-'75

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/WalsBi0.htm

It therefore stands to reason that Brown undoubtedly influenced Walsh's concept of how to run an offence. Although it may be technical correct that Walsh coined the term "WCO," & that Walsh's Os were distinctly different from Brown's, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was exclusively his brain child.

2) The fact that the 49ers had a collection of doormats division rivals for close to 2 decades is an irrefutable fact. However, from '79-'88 (as well as what his successors were able to do with the nucleus Walsh left them over the next 5 seasons), the 49ers were:

3-3 (6-3) vs Bears http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=chi&yr=all
4-2 (6-4) vs Cowboys http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=dal&yr=all
7-4 (10-6) vs Giants http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=nyg&yr=all
2-1 (5-1) vs Eagles http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=phi&yr=all
4-2 (8-2) vs Redskins http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=was&yr=all

Originally Posted by FanInAZ

1) Walsh was a Bengals assistant under Brown for 8 years '68-'75

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/WalsBi0.htm

It therefore stands to reason that Brown undoubtedly influenced Walsh's concept of how to run an offence. Although it may be technical correct that Walsh coined the term "WCO," & that Walsh's Os were distinctly different from Brown's, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was exclusively his brain child.

Right, Walsh was WRs and then QB coach when Virgil Carter started in Cincy, and Carter was a very accurate genius with pitiful arm strength, so Walsh had to build around that. I'm sure Brown influenced him (e.g. Jim Brown's still notorious for terrorizing defenses by taking short dump off passes and running over tacklers for 20-30 yds about the time Roger Craig was born) but the WCO was more about Carters excellent but narrow talents than Browns vision; Otto Graham and the aptly named Mac Speedie used elements in their perfect season, but weren't quick outs and a cloud of dust.

Walsh gets a lot of credit at Carters expense, because he's a truly brilliant guy; the season after he posted the NFLs best completion percentage, he spent the offseason completing his Masters in math at Northwestern, during which time he and Robert Machol authored "Operations Research on Football," literally writing the book (or at least the paper) on Expected Points. They're the reason we know a TO's worth exactly 4 EPs and 1st and 10 at ones 20 is worth exactly 0: Because they reviewed every drive for a whole season and proved it.

It's good stuff I highly recommend (and just over 3 pages, so even the TL;DR crowd should be able to handle it.) It also shows why the WCO fit Carter like it was designed for him, which it basically was.
http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/pd.../opre.19.2.541

Originally Posted by FanInAZ

2) The fact that the 49ers had a collection of doormats division rivals for close to 2 decades is an irrefutable fact. However, from '79-'88 (as well as what his successors were able to do with the nucleus Walsh left them over the next 5 seasons), the 49ers were:

3-3 (6-3) vs Bears http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=chi&yr=all
4-2 (6-4) vs Cowboys http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=dal&yr=all
7-4 (10-6) vs Giants http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=nyg&yr=all
2-1 (5-1) vs Eagles http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=phi&yr=all
4-2 (8-2) vs Redskins http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm2=was&yr=all

Oh, I don't dispute that, but getting a free pass to EVERY postseason gave SF far more opportunities than most of those other teams. The Bears are an exception whose situation was similar to SFs: The Packs glory days under Lombardi were long gone, Minnesota was hopeless, Tampa was so poorly run they quickly gave up on Steve Young and traded him to SF while spending the #1 overall pick on Testaverde, and Detroit was Destroit. The big difference is Chicago at least competed against a full division, while SF only had to beat 3 garbage teams for a playoff berth.

Yet look at the other teams in that comparison: Dallas, NY, Washington and Philly; what do they all have in common besides being good teams? They were all from the SAME DIVISION, so while SF was guaranteed an annual playoff berth even if it phoned in the regular season, the NFCE teams had to slug it out all year playing SB teams just to win their division. It says something about the difference in competition that while SF went 5-0 in SBs and the rest of its division 0-1, the NFCE went 8-1.

The point is, yes, SF consistently got it done in the postseason, and were a genuinely great team, but perennial automatic playoff berths made their job far easier by giving them far more chances. There were many seasons Parcells' Giants, Gibbs 'Skins or Johnsons Cowboys battled it out with SF for the Conference Championsip, but the one constant was that each of those teams had to fight and claw with the others to even REACH the playoffs while SF got a free pass, so it's no surprise SF won more than the SB teams OTHER SB teams denied even a CHANCE to repeat.

That also applies to the Steelers Dynasty that went 4-0 in SBs despite having to get past Andersons good Cincy teams and Bums elite Oilers teams to not only win the division but playoff homefield, then went 2-0 in SBs against a Cowboys Dynasty that went 2-1 in other SBs at the same time. Dallas and Pitt are tied for most SB, Conference Championship and playoff appearances, and the main thing separating the most successful and SECOND most successful post-merger team is Pitts 2-1 SB record vs. Dallas gives them more Lombardis (6) than anyone and leaves Dallas tied for 2nd with 5.

San Francisco simply never had that level of competition; in the postseason, sure, but no one reaches the postseason without the successful regular season SF was guaranteed but Pitt had to EARN.

Originally Posted by Joel

Ya'll had two great seasons; yea, but y'know that stat about KC not winning a playoff game since 1991? That was a year AFTER Cincys last playoff win.

Actually.. I believe the CHiefs went to the AFC Championship game in 1993 with Joe Montana as the QB and Schottenheimer as the coach.

Hey, did you guys know Dennis Allen got fired? It's kind of breaking news.

Originally Posted by Davii

Hey, did you guys know Dennis Allen got fired? It's kind of breaking news.

It's broke.

Originally Posted by King87

It's broke.

You wouldn't know it from reading this thread about it