Thread: Nine Broncos among Hall of Fame nominees

http://unclemikesmusings.blogspot.co...team-2014.html

Storylines have to be very difficult to attach to a potential hof, especially a coach. Yes vermeil was a very inspiring lovable and emotional coach, however his case is simply being at the right place at the right time. You could throw coach Allen of the raiders at the helm of that extraordinary spread offense team and they still would of waved the trophy. Personally, its a love hate relationship with Reeves, because of the internal head bumping between bowlen and elway. For fun, if I were to choose the coach and the only 2 categories were storylines and stats, I would say Marty schotenheimer(sp). Also I wanted to add that what Hester did today is simply going to be a record that will take decades, if ever, to get broken. I played pw football and hs ball and returning punts especially kickoffs was the scariest and most unpredictable thing to do(I thought/think) on the gridiron. Other notable studs I remember at this pos. Eric metcalf, Dave megget, Brian Mitchell. These guys had full careers at these positions and were successful.

Originally Posted by Denver Native (Carol)

http://unclemikesmusings.blogspot.co...team-2014.html

Wait, so the Steelers are 3rd in the number of hall of famers and the Cowboys are 8th? The way people talk on here, you'd think those were the only two teams that have hall of famers. I wonder why no one complains that the Packers and Bears have too many guys in there.

And you'd also think that Denver was dead last in hall of famers. 18th is probably a little low considering our franchise history, but it's not like the committee completely ignores us. We definitely have some snubs but like I said, I'm sure every other fanbase thinks they have snubs too.

You also have to consider, many of the franchises ahead of us have been around WAY longer than the Broncos, so they racked up on a bunch of hall of famers from the early years of the NFL. By the time the Broncos came around pro football had already been around for like 30 something years, so we already had a bunch of catching up to do to teams like the Browns, Lions, Bears, Cowboys, Packers, etc.

Originally Posted by Slick

6 Superbowls though. Not many teams can say that.

No, Pitt has 6 SBs, but Dallas "only" 5; that's the SOLE postseason difference: They're tied for most SB and playoff appearances ever, but Pitt winning the best-of-three makes them 6-2 in SBs and Dallas 5-3. 2-5 compares poorly, especially since all 5 losses were blowouts; the only time Dallas OR Pitt lost by >1 score was when Dallas beat Pitt 27-17 in SB XXX. Dallas also has the pretty much untouchable record for most consecutive winning seasons (1966-1985) which tends to earn a little fame.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

Wait, so the Steelers are 3rd in the number of hall of famers and the Cowboys are 8th? The way people talk on here, you'd think those were the only two teams that have hall of famers. I wonder why no one complains that the Packers and Bears have too many guys in there.

People used to, especially when the Packers sucked in the '70s and '80s, but if we go all the way back to the NFLs founding GB still has more championships than anyone, and Chicago won a lot then, too (ironically and notably, two exceptions were when they recorded perfect seasons only to lose the Championship Game ala the '07 Patriots.) The NFC Championship Trophy's named after Chicagos longtime player/coach, so it stands to reason they have lots of HoFers.

And you'd also think that Denver was dead last in hall of famers. 18th is probably a little low considering our franchise history, but it's not like the committee completely ignores us. We definitely have some snubs but like I said, I'm sure every other fanbase thinks they have snubs too.

Originally Posted by Slick

You also have to consider, many of the franchises ahead of us have been around WAY longer than the Broncos, so they racked up on a bunch of hall of famers from the early years of the NFL. By the time the Broncos came around pro football had already been around for like 30 something years, so we already had a bunch of catching up to do to teams like the Browns, Lions, Bears, Cowboys, Packers, etc.

That's a big part of it, yeah, though (just for the record,) the Cowboys are essentially the same age as the Broncos. The difference is they had Landry, and only needed 5 years from their founding to reach a contender status they held for the next 20 years, then rebuilt from nothing to become the first team to win 3 SBs in 4 years. Despite equal ages, Dallas made 6 NFCCGs and 2 SBs (winning one) by the time Denver had its FIRST WINNING SEASON, and it was 4 more years before Denvers first playoff berth sent them to the SB against Dallas, who'd already played another in the interim.

Think of all the most flawlessly dominant dynasties since the merger:

Lombardis Packers
The Steel Curtain, complemented by Harris, Swann and Bradshaw
Walshs '49ers with Montana and Young complemented by a punishing D

Dallas faced them ALL but came away with a 5-3 SB record and an 8-8 NFCCG record (despite facing Lombardis Pack and Walshs '49ers in 4 of them.) Except for a brief mid-eighties rebuild, they were contenders and frequent champions from the mid-sixties till the late nineties; if anything, they should have MORE HoFers.

Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53

Vermeil's successes were a fluke, in some ways.

1. In Philadelphia, he shouldn't have won more than one playoff game. In 78, they only get to the playoffs because of the Miracle at the Meadowlands. In 79, they should have lost to Chicago. The officials made some bad calls in that one. Then, in 80, they were lucky that Atlanta choked against the Cryboys. They also lost to the Giants in the 81 WC. He did turn that team around, but he was also way too demanding and uptight, and that style may have cost his team SB XV to a degree.

Yes, but Phillys owner made Vermeil coach his first TWO seasons with NO first round draft pick; that has to add to the luster of taking them from nothing to a SB in just 4 years. And I don't think facing Dallas in the 1980 NFCCG was "lucky" or Atlanta "choked:" The Falcons were a losing team the season before AND after, but for Dallas it was the season after a SB loss to Pitt and before The Catch in a third straight NFCCG appearance. Phillys only "luck" was winning the division tiebreak so Dallas had to play an extra playoff game before the rubber game for a trip to the SB.

Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53

2. With the Rams, he was on his way to being fired after 1998. Then, he gets Holt and Faulk, and Kurt Warner somehow turns out to be way better than they could have even dreamed. Even then, they almost lose to Tampa in the NFC Title Game, and then they barely escape OT against Tennessee.

1998 was only two years after he arrived on a team that hadn't had a winning season since 1989, rarely winning >5 games, and has been pretty awful ever since he left. Vermeil's never been a defensive genius, but the Rams D actually managed to get (a lot) worse after Martz took charge (though it probably didn't matter against NEs cameramen.) I can't fault Vermeil taking a 6-10 team to 5-9 and then 4-12—but taking them to 13-3 SB Champs the very next season's impressive: It's just not Vermeils SOLE achievement, nor even close.

Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53

3. In KC, the only year he had was that 13-3 2003 team, and that team was a paper tiger. The game that sticks out was the one where Dante Hall got a long punt return against the Broncos because he benefited from several clips that weren't called.

He had a 10-6 team that managed to miss the playoffs the year Plummer imploded in the AFCCG, but the real testament to Vermeils KC achievements remains their total prolonged collapse after he left: 2006 was an OK 9 win season, but after that it took them THREE FULL YEARS to win as many games as their last year with Vermeil. That team WAS a paper tiger: Yet Vermeil coached it to 13-3 one season and 10-6 two years later—then he retired again and they almost immediately became and remained hopeless without him; they're just starting to recover (maybe...) a DECADE later.

On top of all that, sure, Vermeils broadcast experience burnishes his credentials for the Hall of FAME. So does having a kid brother who came up with and sold the Broncos (among others) a training computer to measure player speed, reaction time and fatigue back in the mid-eighties when computers were still black box technology to most people. Anything and everything that keeps potential inductees in the public eye (positively) helps, especially since...:

Originally Posted by crazbarker

Storylines have to be very difficult to attach to a potential hof, especially a coach.

That's pretty much the process though, inevitably with 48 sports journalists deciding who's in and who's not.

Originally Posted by crazbarker

Yes vermeil was a very inspiring lovable and emotional coach, however his case is simply being at the right place at the right time. You could throw coach Allen of the raiders at the helm of that extraordinary spread offense team and they still would of waved the trophy.

Okay, and you could throw Jim Mora at the helm of the Packers Sweeps of the '60s or Dennis Green at the helm of Dallas Flex D Razzle Dazzle offenses of the '70s and they probably still manage a SB despite the coaching ineptitude—except those teams never would've HAD the designs that made them champions without the coaches who designed them. Throw Martz at the head of the Rams spread offense and there's no trophy; throw Vermeil at a moribund Chiefs team and they lead the NFL in scoring several straight years. Coincidence or coaching?

Originally Posted by crazbarker

Personally, its a love hate relationship with Reeves, because of the internal head bumping between bowlen and elway. For fun, if I were to choose the coach and the only 2 categories were storylines and stats, I would say Marty schotenheimer(sp). Also I wanted to add that what Hester did today is simply going to be a record that will take decades, if ever, to get broken. I played pw football and hs ball and returning punts especially kickoffs was the scariest and most unpredictable thing to do(I thought/think) on the gridiron. Other notable studs I remember at this pos. Eric metcalf, Dave megget, Brian Mitchell. These guys had full careers at these positions and were successful.

Reeves threw a TD in the Ice Bowl and was present as player or assistant for all 5 of Landrys SB appearances, then took us to the SB three times, THEN took over a 3-13 team and had it 14-2 facing us in a SB just two years later. He's just one short of enough Conference Championship Rings to fill BOTH HANDS, but can make up the difference with his two SB Rings. He should've been in Canton years ago.

Originally Posted by Denver Native (Carol)

http://unclemikesmusings.blogspot.co...team-2014.html

This list is bogus. Only 1 Cardinal player in the HoF?

Try 18 (12 of whom spent at least half their careers with the Cards).

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/teams.aspx

Joel, my meaning was that Denver has played in 6. I was wrong. They've played in 7 actually, and that's more than a lot of teams can say. That doesn't seem to be much of a factor in Denver's case for hall of famers.

Originally Posted by Slick

Joel, my meaning was that Denver has played in 6. I was wrong. They've played in 7 actually, and that's more than a lot of teams can say. That doesn't seem to be much of a factor in Denver's case for hall of famers.

Well you can't count one of those 7 super bowls in our hall of fame evaluations because it just happened this year. None of the players from that game are HOF eligible.

And one could argue that for 3 of those other 6, John Elway carried a relatively average to above average team to those Super Bowls.

I'm not trying to downplay Denver's accomplishments, I just don't see this laundry list of huge HOF snubs. Yeah there are a few like Meck, Gradishar, maybe TD and Atwater, but some of the guys on this list (Schlereth, Nalen, Elam) are pretty big reaches to say they are snubs if they don't get in.

Originally Posted by BroncoWave

Well you can't count one of those 7 super bowls in our hall of fame evaluations because it just happened this year. None of the players from that game are HOF eligible.

And one could argue that for 3 of those other 6, John Elway carried a relatively average to above average team to those Super Bowls.

I'm not trying to downplay Denver's accomplishments, I just don't see this laundry list of huge HOF snubs. Yeah there are a few like Meck, Gradishar, maybe TD and Atwater, but some of the guys on this list (Schlereth, Nalen, Elam) are pretty big reaches to say they are snubs if they don't get in.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Slick

Joel, my meaning was that Denver has played in 6. I was wrong. They've played in 7 actually, and that's more than a lot of teams can say. That doesn't seem to be much of a factor in Denver's case for hall of famers.

I was being sarcastic (sorry.) There's a short list of teams with 6 SB appearances (and only three others with 7+) but all the OTHERS on that list have more than TWICE as many SB WINS as us. Second best is worth less than THE best; whether it's worthless or just much worse depends on whom one asks, but the difference is only small to fans of whoever lost the last SB. And, again, we didn't just LOSE 5, we got DESTROYED in EVERY loss. 27-10 was the "close" one; in 3 we didn't even get within 20 pts, and still hold the record for worst SB beating: As bad as last year was, it was still 10 pts better than THAT.

That 2-5 record stacked against Pitts 6 Lombardis, Dallas and SFs 5, or GB and the Giants' 4 weighs less. How much less? 2-3 times, depending on team. Oh, well; at least we EARNED our SB wins, unlike that OTHER team with 7 SB appearances (who only managed ONE more win even with their cameramans help.)

Originally Posted by Joel

I was being sarcastic (sorry.) There's a short list of teams with 6 SB appearances (and only three others with 7+) but all the OTHERS on that list have more than TWICE as many SB WINS as us. Second best is worth less than THE best; whether it's worthless or just much worse depends on whom one asks, but the difference is only small to fans of whoever lost the last SB. And, again, we didn't just LOSE 5, we got DESTROYED in EVERY loss. 27-10 was the "close" one; in 3 we didn't even get within 20 pts, and still hold the record for worst SB beating: As bad as last year was, it was still 10 pts better than THAT.

That 2-5 record stacked against Pitts 6 Lombardis, Dallas and SFs 5, or GB and the Giants' 4 weighs less. How much less? 2-3 times, depending on team. Oh, well; at least we EARNED our SB wins, unlike that OTHER team with 7 SB appearances (who only managed ONE more win even with their cameramans help.)

I purposely left off our record in those Superbowls because being 2-5 in those seven is painful.

Originally Posted by Slick

I purposely left off our record in those Superbowls because being 2-5 in those seven is painful.

We have more SB appearances than all but 2 other teams (and only one other's tied for second,) but 14 others have more WINS, and 5 more have as many. That's over half the league, even after expansion teams; doesn't make for tons of HoFers. And the MARGINS... we not only have the worst SB loss, but 4 of the top (or bottom) 10. We don't WANT people to remember that, much less enshrine it in Canton.

Originally Posted by Dzone

League MVP, SuperBowl MVP and a 2,000 yard season for TD, and the HOF still puts Curtis Martin in instead of him. That in itself discredits the entire selection process

Really wish that someone from whoever decides who goes into the HoF would actually answer why Terrell Davis is not in there. One of the most revolutionary RB's to ever play.

Originally Posted by Apollo

Really wish that someone from whoever decides who goes into the HoF would actually answer why Terrell Davis is not in there. One of the most revolutionary RB's to ever play.

According to the Halls site, it's a media rep from each teams city (so NY has two,) another from the Pro Football Writers of America, and 15 at-large media reps. It lists Legwold as Denvers rep: Ask him.